Wokeness

Of course they do. But they are not in danger from (for example) police brutality in the same way people of colour are. In the social hierarchy, they are higher.

GagaJo

But if the groups that are being free with their speech, are doing so negatively about another group (think ethnicity, age, sex/gender, nationality/physical ability), then it is right that they are challenged. Calling those that challenge racism/ageism/ableism/sexism 'woke' is just a way of undermining bigotry.

It isn't the same, calling someone white, honkey. Because white people are in the socially privileged position. They have more social power. It isn't a like for like encounter, using 'honkey' and the N word.

We should always challenge bigotry. It isn't 'wokeness' or 'political correctness gone mad'. It is attempting to work towards equality for all.

Not all white people are in “a socially privileged position” by any means. Or don’t they count?

Beswitched: 'hijacked by fanatics'. Your viewpoint?

The old stereotype, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Remember, it is not trans supporters who start thread, after thread, after thread about trans issues. Who are the fanatics again?

Who holds the scales, weighing and considering what is morally right and important and what is bigotry?

Those bashing 'wokeness' and 'political correctness' are doing exactly what you have spoken out against Beswitched. Trying to silence those they disagree with on the issue of trans people.

Galaxy

Obviously because something hasnt happened to you or those you know it isnt real. I currently dont know anyone with cystic fibrosis I still believe it exists.

Exactly. Some od Gagajo's posts are a good example of wokeness being distorted andused to intimidate or silence people.
No one on this thread has indulged in trans bashing or whipping up hatred, and nowhere has it been implied that speaking out against racism is anything other than morally right and important.

Doodledog

I did look before I asked but it only mentioned judges, not victims

VioletSky

Over thinking

You can also say "the defendant", but people I know who have been to court didn't have to speak in front of the person anyway.

I am working on the assumption this has actually happened.... I didnt think to ask... Has it?

If you mean have women been forced to refer to their rapists as 'she', then yes. More than once. A quick google (or a trawl back over numerous threads on here) will fill you in on the details.

Galaxy

I was making a point in a bit of an arsey way summer love I dont think you see yourself as an arbiter. Thankyou for replying. I suppose I think it's really hard to think without offending people, it's how we thrash out the issues that cause us difficulties. And I think it's often the most vulnerable groups who suffer when we try to constrain speech to being non offensive. Most people dont want to be offensive, I for one dont want to call peoples names, but we need to be careful in terms of constraints on speech.

It can absolutely be hard to think without offending people.

The difference is what you actually say. Like I said, I try not to be offensive.

Though for causes I believe in strongly, I’ll do my best to fight for them.

People can have polar opposite views but can remain cordial if everyone tries

lemongrove

I didn’t mean physically afraid of the students, but exactly the scenario you mention DD which leads to constant backing down by Uni staff in order to placate what students want/ demand.
Yes, I can blame them for not speaking out, if they all ( at any given Uni) had the backbone to act as one on this matter they could have stamped on it from the outset.
Quietly caving in to unreasonable demands leads to more of it.

You are right, of course. But I'm guessing that you haven't worked in the current university environment? Many staff are on insecure contracts and would lose their jobs without recourse to any help, and those on permanent contracts are still vulnerable. Universities don't operate like schools, so I don't think it is realistic to say that 'any given 'Uni' could stamp anything out.

I agree that the situation is wrong, and would like to see it change, but I don't agree that individual staff are to blame.

Over thinking

You can also say "the defendant", but people I know who have been to court didn't have to speak in front of the person anyway.

I am working on the assumption this has actually happened.... I didnt think to ask... Has it?

I was making a point in a bit of an arsey way summer love I dont think you see yourself as an arbiter. Thankyou for replying. I suppose I think it's really hard to think without offending people, it's how we thrash out the issues that cause us difficulties. And I think it's often the most vulnerable groups who suffer when we try to constrain speech to being non offensive. Most people dont want to be offensive, I for one dont want to call peoples names, but we need to be careful in terms of constraints on speech.

When you put it like that MerylStreep it really doesn't make any sense at all does it.

VioletSky

No one would have to call anyone a "she" in court, they could easily use another term like "they" or "them" or "that person". I know some will argue that a victim shouldn't have to worry about the words they use but, it's quite usual unless you over think it. I've used "they" twice in this comment, did you notice?

So maybe I am overthinking it. The word 'they' is usually used when you don't know who the person is or whether 'they' are male or female. When we know who the person is we normally refer to them as 'he' or 'she'. So in court the woman would say 'he raped me' because everyone knows she is talking about the person in the dock. She wouldn't say 'they raped me' and she would feel very weird saying 'she raped me'. Neither would come naturally to someone speaking about being raped when the rapist is standing in front of them.

Violetsky
Why should a victim have to change the way she talks in everyday life just to appease someone who has violated her body.

merylstreep
I’m not sure, I’ve not been in that situation. I couldn’t tell you how I’d feel.

galaxy
I was speaking more in general terms in general conversation. So many say they can’t even have conversations with people anymore.

I have a family member who feels covid vaccines are against church teachings and that Trump was a wonder president. I strongly disagree with both of those. Instead Of being rude about, I have polite conversations about other things. So as not to offend them.

Women deserved the vote
Marriage should be equal to all
Black Lives Matter.

But you can still have polite inoffensive conversations with those who disagree.

I never said I was the arbiter of what’s offensive. You put that out there when you called my views offensive. Food for thought.

I agree with your OP Beswitched. There are certainly very vocal minority groups making a lot of noise and doing a disservice to the groups/organisations they claim to support.

I didn’t mean physically afraid of the students, but exactly the scenario you mention DD which leads to constant backing down by Uni staff in order to placate what students want/ demand.
Yes, I can blame them for not speaking out, if they all ( at any given Uni) had the backbone to act as one on this matter they could have stamped on it from the outset.
Quietly caving in to unreasonable demands leads to more of it.

Allsorts

I think you have to be careful what you say with certain people as everything comes back to the same sad accusations, so best to stay clear as you do in life, mix with people with the same values who are not looking for hidden meanings in just about everything.

Yes of course. I've been in groups of all white people who thought it was safe and acceptable to express racist opinions. Not realising most of my family were black.

No doubt, they thought my protest against their racism was a sad accusation, and totally unfounded. ?

Time to make a stand, from university staff for a start, they appear to be afraid of the students.

I don't think that the vast majority of staff are afraid of the students. Not directly, at any rate. What they have reason to be afraid of is the way in which university managers insist on judging staff performance on student 'satisfaction'. Many students are only satisfied if they get high marks, and blame staff if they don't get them.

Also, many may want to speak out against being forced to declare pronouns, and similar nonsense on which managers are insisting in order to placate Stonewall and keep their 'diversity champion' status. Some universities are breaking away from this strictures, however, which will make life easier for staff. You can't blame them for being afraid to speak out until then, however - look what happened to Kathleen Stock.

No one would have to call anyone a "she" in court, they could easily use another term like "they" or "them" or "that person". I know some will argue that a victim shouldn't have to worry about the words they use but, it's quite usual unless you over think it. I've used "they" twice in this comment, did you notice?

Beswitched

Doodledog

Possibly. I see what you mean, but there are those who (as with 'PC gone mad') sneer at any attempt to be considerate to the sensitivities of others, moan about 'snowflakes' and so on.

And nobody has done that on this thread.

Eh? I was responding to a direct question.

Do all comments on here have to refer to ones that have been made previously? I thought it was a discussion about wokeness, not a snipefest about others' posts. If I'd seen someone moan about 'snowflakes' I would have commented directly - I don't do passive aggression.

Galaxy

I find your post really offensive summer love. It goes against many of the values I hold dear. It was considered offensive at some times for women to want the vote, it was considered offensive for gay people to want access to marriage. Should they have not said those things in case it offended. People forget that they are not the arbiters of what is offensive.

Oops! Sorry Galaxy but your first sentence and your last sentence contradict each other surely.

Beswitched

I think, though Gagajo that it is a certain group or groups who have undermined the term and given it a different meaning.

Being truly 'woke' should not mean replacing one set of rights for another, intimidating and threatening people who say something you don't agree with or trying to silence those who have different views to yours. That is dictatorship not tolerance and open mindedness.

Exactly!????
It seems to be easy now though for a tiny minority of people to make a lot of angry noise and the majority just roll over to it.Time to make a stand, from university staff for a start, they appear to be afraid of the students.

I find your post really offensive summer love. It goes against many of the values I hold dear. It was considered offensive at some times for women to want the vote, it was considered offensive for gay people to want access to marriage. Should they have not said those things in case it offended. People forget that they are not the arbiters of what is offensive.

Allsorts I think it is good to mix with people with “different values” because it’s useful to listen to their point of view, and learn why/where they are coming from and perhaps become more tolerant……BUT I admit there are certain views I do find it difficult to tolerate.