Wokeness

Galaxy

Obviously because something hasnt happened to you or those you know it isnt real. I currently dont know anyone with cystic fibrosis I still believe it exists.

Exactly. Some od Gagajo's posts are a good example of wokeness being distorted andused to intimidate or silence people.
No one on this thread has indulged in trans bashing or whipping up hatred, and nowhere has it been implied that speaking out against racism is anything other than morally right and important.

Who holds the scales, weighing and considering what is morally right and important and what is bigotry?

Those bashing 'wokeness' and 'political correctness' are doing exactly what you have spoken out against Beswitched. Trying to silence those they disagree with on the issue of trans people.

Beswitched: 'hijacked by fanatics'. Your viewpoint?

The old stereotype, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Remember, it is not trans supporters who start thread, after thread, after thread about trans issues. Who are the fanatics again?

GagaJo

But if the groups that are being free with their speech, are doing so negatively about another group (think ethnicity, age, sex/gender, nationality/physical ability), then it is right that they are challenged. Calling those that challenge racism/ageism/ableism/sexism 'woke' is just a way of undermining bigotry.

It isn't the same, calling someone white, honkey. Because white people are in the socially privileged position. They have more social power. It isn't a like for like encounter, using 'honkey' and the N word.

We should always challenge bigotry. It isn't 'wokeness' or 'political correctness gone mad'. It is attempting to work towards equality for all.

Not all white people are in “a socially privileged position” by any means. Or don’t they count?

Of course they do. But they are not in danger from (for example) police brutality in the same way people of colour are. In the social hierarchy, they are higher.

Galaxy. I am trying to understand what you mean by ' I think it's often the most vulnerable groups who suffer when we try to constrain speech to being non offensive.'

GagaJo

Of course they do. But they are not in danger from (for example) police brutality in the same way people of colour are. In the social hierarchy, they are higher.

This is absolutely true, and illustrates the important of language in these debates.

I really wish that the term used to describe the way that white people are not disadvantaged because of their race (although of course they may be in other ways) didn't use the word 'privilege'.

It suggests that all white people have lived charmed lives, when we all know that that is not true. It results in posts online (not here - I am thinking in particular of Facebook history groups) that link conditions in Victorian factories, mills and mines with slavery, and suggests that Black Lives Matter and similar movements are based on a lie, as white people have suffered too.

The term is not about privilege in the sense of having a 'silver spoon' - it just means that most people of colour have more things to hold them back than most white people.

GagaJo

Who holds the scales, weighing and considering what is morally right and important and what is bigotry?

Those bashing 'wokeness' and 'political correctness' are doing exactly what you have spoken out against Beswitched. Trying to silence those they disagree with on the issue of trans people.

Nobody is bashing wokeness. Some of us are expressing concern about how it has become exploited and hijacked in a way that is abusing the rights of one group (in the example of men identifying as women, the right of females to have safe spaces) in order to push the wants of another group.

Agreed, Beswitched.

Generally, the fact that different people have different ways of expressing things can be worked around with a bit of tolerance, but this one is different. Decades of work towards equality for women is being eroded, and will be wiped out altogether if the TRA agenda is not stopped in its tracks, yet those who speak out are accused of not being 'woke' and of bing unkind (if they are women), or being unsupportive. It's the first time in my lifetime that I've felt so silenced. This site is one of the few places that allows frank discussion of this topic, and frustrating as it can be at times, I am grateful for that.

VioletSky

Over thinking

You can also say "the defendant", but people I know who have been to court didn't have to speak in front of the person anyway.

I am working on the assumption this has actually happened.... I didnt think to ask... Has it?

You obviously didn’t read the link I put up from the Lawgazette, did you. It highlights a case.

Sorry if I've missed something, but the only advice given to courts I can find is that judges use preferred pronouns, if a judge has insisted that in a case then I suppose that could be looked into. It must be difficult at present if a person has met the criteria to be treated as transgender and I think that is a case by case by case basis until there becomes some sort of guidelines around this particular issue.

"she" can be avoided by anyone who wants to do so and many are now asking to have different pronouns so that is something we as a society need to learn in the interest of being polite and respectful.

Obviously in the UK rape can only be committed with a penis as things stand and honestly I do not believe that is good enough either.

I was taught that if a thing could be read or heard or views two ways then always choose the best.

Women (without a penis), can, and have been actually convicted of rape in the UK. And are serving sentences for that.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/mar/17/sarahhall

Aveline

Along with buzz words , woke, snowflake etc we also have 'no platforming' and 'cancelling'. We're all going to be stunned into silence soon at this rate.

Totally agree Aveline ?

www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-woke-words-language-b1985348.html

I dislike the way terms like political correctness/woke/snowflake/ for example, are used to dismiss attempts to make society a fairer, more equal place.

VioletSky

No one would have to call anyone a "she" in court, they could easily use another term like "they" or "them" or "that person". I know some will argue that a victim shouldn't have to worry about the words they use but, it's quite usual unless you over think it. I've used "they" twice in this comment, did you notice?

I don’t agree. The terminology used in court would be the pronouns the defendant identifies with, so it’s quite conceivable that the victim of rape would have to refer to the perpetrator as she/her.

To be honest, if you’re kind and respectful towards other people at all times, then you don’t need a term such as ‘woke’ or even ‘politically correct.’ Having said that, others also need to be kind and respectful towards you at all times. I think for example, that it’s not respectful to allow full males into female changing rooms (there was a thread about that recently) because to do so may very well cause upset and distress to females who are using the changing room. There is never a reason to be rude towards others whatever their skin colour, gender, political position, age, level of ability. We are all human and all deserve respect.

If, God forbid, I was in court facing a man who had raped me, I'd certainly refer to him as 'him' loud and clear. I suspect the jury would understand. The judge could say what they liked. I wouldn't care. If then accused of contempt of court I'd happily and publicly live with it. I hope the unfortunate women this happens to would do the same.

If someone is raped with a penis, then clearly it is madness to call the perpetrator ‘she’ in the context of a rape trial. The court should treat the victim with the respect that he/she deserves.

Coastpath

*Galaxy*. I am trying to understand what you mean by ' I think it's often the most vulnerable groups who suffer when we try to constrain speech to being non offensive.'

women with learning disabilities (and other disabilities) are excluded and directly affected in protection of law by changes to gender based language and it is something that really needs to be carefully considered, not overlooked or sneered at. The changes that were proposed re self id for example directly impacted on safeguarding for some women within these minority groups.

'Woke' is a rude word employed by people who aim to diminish the reputations of left wing voters.

I dont use the word woke as I think it's too vague. But I am left wing and consistently talk about the hypocrisy inherent in say the sex work is work mantra. So I think many who are left wing are concerned about constraints on speech or other aspects of this.

Where has all this nonsense come from ?

EllanVannin, much name-calling , including the bad-mouthing 'woke', comes from political spin