Vagina Museum

Mollygo

trisher

Re. suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts.

So if it’s acceptable not to have actual figures for this, it’s obviously acceptable not to have actual figures for those who detransition but only the feedback from those affected.
Parents who didn’t support the transition will naturally blame the clinic or hospital where the treatment took place and we'll know about them more easily than those whose parents supported the transition and then feel guilty about their detransitioning child’s affected or ruined future.
Your preoccupation with Nazis?

If there are research studies dealing with detransition please do post a link Mollygo I'd love to read them.

Doodledog

You are missing the point quite spectacularly, trisher, whether deliberately or otherwise.

Perhaps I am but the evidence is there disregarding it or playing semantics shows a distinct lack of concern for suicidal people.

You are missing the point quite spectacularly, trisher, whether deliberately or otherwise.

Doodledog

*Doodledog did you bother to read the suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts. Do you really expect a bereaved parent to say that their child committed suicide because their transgenderism wasn't supported?*

Did you bother to read my post? The point I was making was that you call figures into question when they point at holes in your argument, but when we recently had a 1000 post thread based on figures for attempted suicide there was no response to repeated requests for clarification as to how they had been reached, given the lack of records of either transpeople or suicide attempts.

I posted three links to information about suicide attempts and transgender today Doodledog I'm sorry if this information wasn't posted on another thread (isn't there a GN rule about cross threads?) But it is there now.

Thanks Doodledog! I agree with you as well! If there wasn't such gendered stereotypes and we could all just BE. If we could all be accepted as people... Then people would not feel like they needed to look this this in order to be accepted as that. They could just get on with being their own unique selves and happy in their own skin.

But the fashion and beauty industry does not want this!! Every day I see more young girls with fillers, who would be beautiful- but have seen fit to allow their pretty faces to be injected -this is just one aspect of a toxic society where everyone (or at least many people) want to be something they're not.

OnwardandUpward

I know two FTM trans people who detransitioned and one MTF trans person who detransitioned. It does happen, it always has but I'm not sure how widely know about it is.

I also know someone who can live as either gender due to their birth assignment and lives as either .I can't help thinking that if self acceptance was taught from an early age, people might be less likely to label themselves or feel pressure to make lasting decisions that they cannot fully understand the implications of at a very young age.

I agree, OAU.

To me, it is the concept of 'gender' that it to blame. Gender is just stereotypes based on sex, and sex can't be changed, so it would make more sense to break down the link between sex and so-called 'gender norms', and live and let live.

Doodledog did you bother to read the suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts. Do you really expect a bereaved parent to say that their child committed suicide because their transgenderism wasn't supported?

Did you bother to read my post? The point I was making was that you call figures into question when they point at holes in your argument, but when we recently had a 1000 post thread based on figures for attempted suicide there was no response to repeated requests for clarification as to how they had been reached, given the lack of records of either transpeople or suicide attempts.

trisher

Re. suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts.

So if it’s acceptable not to have actual figures for this, it’s obviously acceptable not to have actual figures for those who detransition but only the feedback from those affected.
Parents who didn’t support the transition will naturally blame the clinic or hospital where the treatment took place and we'll know about them more easily than those whose parents supported the transition and then feel guilty about their detransitioning child’s affected or ruined future.
Your preoccupation with Nazis?

I know two FTM trans people who detransitioned and one MTF trans person who detransitioned. It does happen, it always has but I'm not sure how widely know about it is.

I also know someone who can live as either gender due to their birth assignment and lives as either .I can't help thinking that if self acceptance was taught from an early age, people might be less likely to label themselves or feel pressure to make lasting decisions that they cannot fully understand the implications of at a very young age.

Doodledog did you bother to read the suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts. Do you really expect a bereaved parent to say that their child committed suicide because their transgenderism wasn't supported?

If looking at the history of transgenderism, it's development, subsequent oppresion and the resulting Nazi attrocities, bothers you, perhaps you should consider why. There is no doubt that the first transgender clinic was in Germany in the 1930s and the Nazis shut it down.

I have never denied women sex based spaces and constantly drawn attention to the law as it stands. Something you seem completely unable to accept.

I don't see how one person dealing with any issue can possibly have a detailed knowledge of all the statistics involved. If scientific researchers find accurate information difficult to uncover how on earth would one person know more?

Thank you Doodledog, you put that so much better than I did.

Have I ever mentioned any level of suicide as acceptable whatever the sex of the victim or the reason for it?
But I’ve read posts, where you support children being offered physical and chemical changes so I’m glad to hear you wouldn’t find any level of that acceptable now.

The sad thing, is that in promoting the ease of transition via chemical and physical treatment, and making it seem like the norm, more and more children are thinking it will solve all their problems, when in fact it’s not the norm, and the problems may well still exist, in addition to the problems of irrevocable or painful and lengthy treatment to try and reverse the procedure.

I don't think exaggerating the numbers detransitioning or using twitter or other social media as a source of accurate information is helpful to anyone. Detailed and accurate research is the only real way to ensure help is properly available.
Indeed, but it is not clear who it is who you think is exaggerating these numbers, nor how you compare what you see as 'exaggeration' with the 'figures' for discrimination against transpeople or the percentage of transpeople who attempt suicide, when there is no register of transpeople, and suicide attempts are not routinely recorded? These 'statistics' have been posted more than once, and requests for some sort of verification have been ignored.

I would suggest that Sinead Watson is in a better position to know even approximate numbers than anyone casually posing on a discussion board, wouldn't you?

I apologise in advance for the pomposity of what follows, but the sad thing is that you seem unable to recognise that in posting unfounded allegations of racism, nazism and homophobia against those who question the TRA ideology, you create a foundation on which others will build, which only serves to maintain and increase the problems that confused young people face when told that they can change sex, and faced by women who find their sex-based spaces denied them. That bigotry and discrimination builds on these things. And caring means not stirring up hate and prejudice (whether against gender-critical feminists in particular, or women in general) unnecessarily.

I would find the figure zero acceptable for any process which was completely irreversible as far as detransitioning goes Mollygo. Just as I would find the figure zero acceptable for anyone failing to find access or help to deal with their gender issues. However I am sensible and practical enough to know that in some countries where private surgery is the norm, just as with other procedures to change people's bodies, there will be surgeons who will undertake the work and people who will regret having the procedure.
I don't think exaggerating the numbers detransitioning or using twitter or other social media as a source of accurate information is helpful to anyone. Detailed and accurate research is the only real way to ensure help is properly available.

Here's a link to the US study on suicide and the trans community
williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/
Here's a link to a Canadian suicide prevention organisation
www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/
Here's a link t Stonewall Stats (because I know you love them!)
www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/trans_stats.pdf

I could ask the same question Mollygo did, what level of suicide would you find acceptable amongst transgender people?
But I won't because it is a silly question. I'm sure you would post you cared very much about them. The sad thing is that you seem unable to recognise that in posting many of the things you do you create a foundation on which others will build and which only serves to maintain and increase the problems young people face. That bigotry and discrimination feeds on these things. And caring means not stirring up hate and prejudice unnecessarily.

The posts I added may mention unsubstantiated figures. I was sent the link from someone attempting to detransition, and having to cope with the fact that she is infertile and will need reconstructive surgery.
However, that brings us back to the oft repeated question; * Are you saying it’s less real and painful and wrong to encourage or allow children to have their bodies changed by chemical or physical treatment if the numbers are smaller?*
Trisher, what figure of detransitions would you find acceptable before it becomes unacceptable to allow and encourage children to undergo chemical or physical treatment to change their bodies, either irrevocably or with only a painful or difficult reversal?

The only mention of 'thousands' I can find in the past few posts is in Grannydarkhair's post where she says:
there are approx 26,000 desisters/detransitioners on the appropriate sub-Reddit. I have no way of knowing how many are genuine, but believe women like Sinead Watson (a detransitioner) when she says there are thousands that are genuine.

Compare that with your arbitrary decision to 'let's say' that 10% of those having double mastectomies are trans and that 50% of those regret it, then come back and complain about inaccurate figures. GDH acknowledges that it is not possible to get genuine figures, but quotes from someone who has lived experience and is part of the detransitioning community - the figure of thousands comes from Sinead Watson, unless I have missed it on another, earlier post.

I have repeatedly taken issue with 'research' or with statements that claim to show figures for the percentage of trans people who are victimised, or who attempt suicide or whatever, but my questions, even when repeated are simply ignored. There are none, because there can't be.

It is not a question of 'just emoting' (although your dismissive way of describing concern about the misled and mistreated young people involved is very telling). It is a question of wondering why, all of a sudden, children are claiming to be 'in the wrong body', or to 'just know' that they belong to the opposite sex, and why this is linked to women losing safe spaces and the right to compete in sex-classes rather than so-called 'genders'. In anticipation of your response that transpeople have always been with us - yes, I am sure that this is the case, but it is not the case that they have been with us in anything like the numbers that they are now. The rise in numbers has coincided with the silencing of questioners, and with the conflation (in the TRA script) of a concern for victims like Sinead Watson and Kiera Bell with racism, homophobia and eugenics.

The creep of initiatives such as pronouns on email signatures and Teams/Zoom screens (whether or not you are personally familiar with the practices), the stated 'need' for dissenters to be 're-educated' so that they can 'reframe' their thought processes (even about their own traumas) has far more in common with dictatorships and authoritarianism than a questioning of self-appointed guardians of morality.

As for the idea that anyone who believes that women should not be locked in prison cells with male-bodied sex offenders thinks that transpeople should be left to kill themselves - that is idiotic, and yet another example of twisting what people are saying and putting words into their mouths. It is not a binary choice (and why that needs to be said is beyond me). The answer, quite clearly, is that more funding needs to be given to prisons, and that experts (psychologists, criminologists and the like) should be paid to come up with solutions that work for everyone. The solution won't be found by posters on a discussion board for older women, unless they too are experts in the field.

In the current political situation, however, that is unlikely to happen, but as a feminist I believe that this is not a reason to put women at risk in the meantime.

I assume that as the detransitioner support thread is on the internet that it covers many countries, some countries are much further down this route than Britain, the US and Canada to name two. So I think thousands is quite possible, it is very difficult to rely on the statistics as it is clear that certainly sone places such as the tavistock are not operating to any kind of acceptable standards in terms of data collection. This is one of the things that us bigots have been campaigning about.
I think transwomen should be given appropriate mental health support, I am not sure that professionals even know what that is at the moment, as again there appears to be minimal follow up on people who have transitioned.
I dont think women should be told they arent allowed boundaries because of suicide amongst men.

does anyone really think transwomen should just have been left to kill themselves?

No one, in any prison, refuge, safe house, hospital or any areas where people are vulnerable, should be made additionally in more danger and more vulnerable because of a minority and that includes women, men, trans men and trans women. What you're glibly glossing over is that there have been too many male sexual predators who, when faced with being sentenced to a prison term in a male estate, have suddenly discovered that they're actually a trans woman and demand to be housed in a female estate. You know this because, even if your reading and research matter is trans biased and omits these facts, you've had many examples provided to you on the many threads about this subject. You therefore have no excuse for not knowing.

Well let's look at some figures that might be of interest in examining de-transitioning.
There are roughly 18000 double masectomies performed in the UK every year. That number composes mostly women with a family history of breast cancer and has risen quite dramatically after several celebrities announced they were doing it. Even if we say 10% of those operations are transpeople that leads to 1,800, even if 50% of those people regret the operation that makes 900. So where does the "thousands" come from?
I fully agree that anyone transitioning should have the very best counselling and advice before any surgical procedure.
But inflating the figures, relying on Twitter and unsubstantiated statements for information and disregarding genuine research helps no-one.
It would help if instead of just emoting over one aspect of the problem posters actually looked for the evidence. The wider story is always far more complicated than some choose to present.
The problem of transwomen and prison for example did not begin with the authorities just deciding to put transwomen in women's jails. It began with the deaths of 4 transwomen who committed suicide because they were in a man's prison. Perhaps the authorities should have examin;,m,m m ed what would happen more carefully and looked for ways of dealing with things but does anyone really think transwomen should just have been left to kill themselves?

I can see nothing to crow about, nothing to think of as positive in the whole situation. When there are young people accessing drugs on line or on the street because they don't want to share their transgender problem with their family doctor, whilst transgenderism is scarcely touched on during medical training and whilst some people show such antagonism at any point I really can't see that anything, except offering sympathy, care and understanding to everyone involved, transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning, is what is needed. Those stories are tragic, and I see no ‘crowing’ from anyone. Not that I would have expected to see crowing on here, where I have rarely seen anything other than support for transpeople- it is TRAs and Stonewall who come in for criticism, and the ideology that drives them.

I assume that the ‘some people’ who are accused of showing antagonism are posters on here? Perhaps you could clear that up, trisher? It is difficult to respond to these non-specific digs, so I will just say that the antagonism is to those whose unquestioning zeal for so-called ‘trans rights’ has led to the tragic stories above.

How anyone can parrot ‘No Debate’ in the face of testaments like that is beyond me. Surely ‘sympathy, care and understanding’ would include an acknowledgment that a rush to operate (or medicate) based on a ‘feeling’ that a young woman or girl wants to be a man (or a young man or boy wants to be a woman), particularly when they can’t even define ‘man’ or ‘woman’, is premature. Many troubled young people desperately want to be someone other than who they are. For many, part of growing up is to ‘try on’ different personae and ways of life. If you add in something like Autism or confusion about sexuality you have a perfect storm.

I've heard Sinead speak, in person, saying that there was almost no 'assessment' before she was approved for medication and surgery, and no follow up at all from the gender clinic, so the clinic had no idea that she had decided to stop medication and that their treatment of her had not helped her at all.

grannydarkhair

Rosie51 I think she comes across as a lovely young woman, she also writes really well and has a great sense of humour. If she was my daughter I’d be very proud of how she’s coped the last couple of years.
Some of the trans activist posts on the detransitioners Twitter threads were awful, for people that consistently trot out “Be Kind” and “Be Inclusive”, they certainly never are. It’s cult-like behaviour to me, toe the line or beware.

If she was my daughter I’d be very proud of how she’s coped the last couple of years Me too, I so admire Sinead. While she's honest enough to say she wishes her family had stopped her, she's also honest enough to say she'd probably have ignored / fought against them and doesn't blame them in the slightest. I'm so pleased to see her looking like the beautiful young woman she is.

Rosie51 I think she comes across as a lovely young woman, she also writes really well and has a great sense of humour. If she was my daughter I’d be very proud of how she’s coped the last couple of years.
Some of the trans activist posts on the detransitioners Twitter threads were awful, for people that consistently trot out “Be Kind” and “Be Inclusive”, they certainly never are. It’s cult-like behaviour to me, toe the line or beware.

Sinead Watson has posted a photo of herself 2 years post detransition. Thankfully she looks lovely, and much more feminine. She's so honest about the whole episode in her life.

Mollygo you posted whilst I was typing.