Vagina Museum

Chewbacca thinking about the products you mentioned and things like "birth person" etc aren't many of those demands being made by transmen? Because although they may continue to use the product they no longer identify as women. So actually many of them have absolutely nothing to do with natal men or transwomen.

trisher

The discussion has once again only come down to transwomen.
For the record there are transwomen, transmen and non-binary people. They all deserve recognition.
Now I'm leaving

As has been said over and over on these threads, transmen are less of a threat to women, as like the majority of people posting on GN, they are biologically female. Male-bodied people, whether or not they 'present as female' (whatever that means) tend to be bigger and stronger than us. Transmen tend to be the same as we are, so we are less concerned about having them next to us in changing rooms or carrying out intimate examinations without our consent.

IMO the vast majority of people are non-binary, if 'gender' comes down to presentation and 'identification'. When it comes to sex, however, we are all one or the other, so of course we are more uneasy about male-bodied people being in our spaces, the more so if they are not easily identifiable.

You frequently raise the idea that the only way to deal with this is to insist on people 'flashing' or 'checking' one another's genitals on these threads, and you are just as frequently told that no, it is not necessary at all. As we have said ad nauseam, in the vast majority of day to day life we don't care if the person next to us on the bus, or in the next seat at the hairdresser, or serving us in the pub, or teaching our children is male, female or trans. It Doesn't Matter.

It is only when we are vulnerable in hospital, so can't move quickly and there is a man in a nightie in the next bed, or unfortunately (or deservedly) in jail and banged up with a male sex-offender overnight, or our religious belief precludes intimate touching by a man and our gynaecologist is a transwoman, or our young grandchild is stripping down in next to an intact man in the swimming baths, or, or. . .

None of these are everyday occurrences, but you appear to think that it should always be the women involved who should put up with it, however vulnerable or distressed it makes them feel. Why not ask the ones who are asking us to accommodate them, (and in so doing causing the feelings of distress and vulnerability) to rein it in a bit, and consider how we feel?

IMO, one way to deal with it would be to make 'posing as a woman for nefarious purposes' a specific crime, and have a separate penalty attached - in the same way as carrying a knife is a separate offence that is added to one of theft from the person etc. That way, the transwoman in the hairdressers can carry on, but the bloke in the changing rooms stroking himself as a child is showering is criminalised.

The business of mangling the language to eradicate women is for another thread, or at least another post.

I've always accepted them as transwomen. Having a transplanted uterus will not change them into biological females.

Rosie51

trisher

Rosie51

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

You need to post this to copper3 because she doesn't.

Why do you perpetuate this lie? You know full well what copper3 meant by her post. It's not only disingenuous of you, it's being especially condescending and nasty.

Just as an aside and before I go. Surgeons have performed uterus transplants on women born without one and they have given birth. So if eventually transwomen will be able to have uterus transplants will you then accept them?

Chewbacca

And you're leaving again before you answered my question as to why trans men are not making the same demands as trans women?? Drat!

Was that a question? Well actually I didn't know they were, or if they are. There seem to me to be more women's products available in my local chemists than ever before. But I'll check it out next time I'm in.

trisher

Rosie51

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

You need to post this to copper3 because she doesn't.

Why do you perpetuate this lie? You know full well what copper3 meant by her post. It's not only disingenuous of you, it's being especially condescending and nasty.

And you're leaving again before you answered my question as to why trans men are not making the same demands as trans women?? Drat!

The discussion has once again only come down to transwomen.
For the record there are transwomen, transmen and non-binary people. They all deserve recognition.
Now I'm leaving

Rosie51

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

You need to post this to copper3 because she doesn't.

Chewbacca

Why can't you see or understand that our concerns are not about the ordinary person in the street who wishes to present as a woman, is no bother to any one and just wants to live their life in peace? Our concerns are that, in allowing men to self identify as women and claim all rights, privileges and services that go with that, they remove, dilute and diminish those rights, privileges and services for natal women. The very word WOMAN is fast becoming removed from the English lexicon; people who menstruate, breast feeders, cervix havers, child carriers - all of these can only be carried out by the demographic of people who have a certain set of chromosomes and gametes vis-a-vis an Adult Human Female. Politicians are tying themselves in knots trying to not use the word WOMAN because they, like you, are trying to convince us that any one can be a woman and that natal women really should stop making a fuss that some men are intent on using that "right to be a woman" in order to harm natal women. It is acknowledged that this is a minority of men but there have been too many instances where natal women have been harmed by that minority. Think prisons, rape crisis centres, domestic abuse safe havens..... all those places that you trisher condemned as being "straw man arguments". But they matter; they're vitally important to those natal women who need them.

I'm also aware that, whilst there is a loudening voice of men who are demanding that women accept them into their safe spaces and stop complaining; there is almost total silence from the cohort of women, who wish to be known as men, making any similar demands on men's safe spaces. They're not demanding that men's toilets, changing rooms, prisons be opened up to them nor are they demanding that the word MEN be removed from male products, invitations for male medical procedures and men's personal healthcare items. Why would that be do you think?

Because the law protects those things Chewbacca and as far as I can see no one is proposing to change that. If it isn't properly applied that isn't the fault of transpeople anymore than it is your fault or my fault. There's a lot of hot air being blown about about a relatively few cases that are perpetually posted as examples of what really happens. Unfortunately they are getting a bit dated now. And as far as I can see little in daily life has changed and little will change. Although if some have their way perhaps we'll all have to flash our genitals at the loo door.

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

Why can't you see or understand that our concerns are not about the ordinary person in the street who wishes to present as a woman, is no bother to any one and just wants to live their life in peace? Our concerns are that, in allowing men to self identify as women and claim all rights, privileges and services that go with that, they remove, dilute and diminish those rights, privileges and services for natal women. The very word WOMAN is fast becoming removed from the English lexicon; people who menstruate, breast feeders, cervix havers, child carriers - all of these can only be carried out by the demographic of people who have a certain set of chromosomes and gametes vis-a-vis an Adult Human Female. Politicians are tying themselves in knots trying to not use the word WOMAN because they, like you, are trying to convince us that any one can be a woman and that natal women really should stop making a fuss that some men are intent on using that "right to be a woman" in order to harm natal women. It is acknowledged that this is a minority of men but there have been too many instances where natal women have been harmed by that minority. Think prisons, rape crisis centres, domestic abuse safe havens..... all those places that you trisher condemned as being "straw man arguments". But they matter; they're vitally important to those natal women who need them.

I'm also aware that, whilst there is a loudening voice of men who are demanding that women accept them into their safe spaces and stop complaining; there is almost total silence from the cohort of women, who wish to be known as men, making any similar demands on men's safe spaces. They're not demanding that men's toilets, changing rooms, prisons be opened up to them nor are they demanding that the word MEN be removed from male products, invitations for male medical procedures and men's personal healthcare items. Why would that be do you think?

Anyone who knows anything about childrens literature knows there is a whole genre of boarding school books for girls of which EBD is just one (Possibly the best but that's another discussion).
The point about JM and JKR is that there are so many parallels it's impossible to think there wasn't some influence and as I said all that was needed was a small statement of acknowledgemen of Jill Murphy's inspiring books. Of course she probably didn't want more people realising the similarities. Instead when the Worst Witch books were republished after HP Jill Murphy received letters accusing her of ripping JKR off.
As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins.

^ (Really do you not understand when someone is taking the piss?)^

Great now we know not to believe or trust a word you post because you might just be 'taking the piss' again.

I think most of us just want woman to mean an adult human female and transwoman to mean a man who wishes to live and present as a woman. As the trans community appear to be quite happy to use 3 words where one used to suffice (e.g people who menstruate rather than women), spaces and services could be designated as being for women, or women and transwomen, or transwomen. Then we'd all know where we stand apart from those like India Willoughby who now insists having had surgery she is biologically female. But you can't cater to the totally deluded or liars.

No really trisher I don’t waste my time imagining you do anything.
You however imply that others go round asking the questions that you don’t.
trisher says
Really do you not understand when someone is taking the piss.
How am I supposed to know the difference between any of your posts which you claim are taking the piss since you used such a vulgar expression and any of your usual posts when they all look the same?

As for prejudice-you could be considered one the best illustrators of that on GN. Prejudice against anyone who quotes facts.
Prejudice against JKR. (What did she ever do to you I wonder!)
Prejudice against anyone who sees womens’ rights as being overridden by some members of the public including some TW.
Incidentally, do you think JM mentioned to EBD that she was using her ideas or was your post on JM and JKR one of your TTP posts? Perhaps you could label your TTP posts in future, so we don’t get confused.

Unfortunately in my daily life I don't go around checking any of the things that you all seem to imagine I do. (Really do you not understand when someone is taking the piss?)
I haven't so far asked any of the women I have met if they have a womb, a vagina, or a penis. Nor have I checked their gametes or chromosomes. But if that's how you live that's fine. Personally I tend to accept the person standing next to me as a woman if she says she is one. Because actually I can't see how there is any other way to live, and, if there were to be any checks imposed on every day living, to prove who is, or isn't, a woman I can't see that that would be anything but harmful to all of us, including those who choose to describe themselves as natal women. Carry on with your prejudice and discrimination, but be very careful because regimes which have condemned trans people in the past have never stopped at just them.

Mollygo -unarguable facts

Good factual post Chewbacca and I’d love to say unarguable facts . . .

But how long do you think it will take?

The one thing that unites all of these:
White woman
Black woman
Tall woman
Old woman
Young woman

Is their biological makeup - gametes and chromosomes

The one thing that unites all of these:
White man
Black man
Tall man
Old man
Young man

Is their biological makeup - gametes and chromosomes.

The two cannot be altered, transferred, chemically engineered or intertwined. They are, and always will be, what separates one sex from another. Whilst I can take on board that this biological fact will be difficult for those of us who struggle to accept that the world is not as we would always like it to be, it is, regrettably, a scientific fact. Please just accept it; it's not going to change anytime soon.

Elegran
Standard coming-of-age-while-relying-on-friends-not-family plots. Very inspirational for teenagers - and reminiscent of a whole genre of boarding-school books. Should we condemn all those other authors for using the same devices as their predecessors?
It happens all the time as you’ve pointed out from your research into the 7 basic plots.
Next will we be required to
- condemn all those crime writers for having a dénouement scene when the unexpected culprit is revealed?
-condemn all those romance writers, who still have a happy ever after ending?

No of course we shouldn’t, but if a poster is desperate for something to post . . .

trisher doesn't read or acknowledge posts that detract from the twist she wants to use. We've said many times that absence of female sex organs whether by removal or absence since birth does not affect the sex of a person. trisher deliberately misunderstands a poster's, clear to any intelligent person, comment and then proceeds to keep using that to justify her slant. Some people are born with a leg missing, that doesn't mean they're not part of our bipedal species. A female born without a uterus is a female born without a uterus.

I read Jenni Murray in the DM this morning as well Chewbacca. I’d heard Annelise Dodds and despaired. I’m off to write to Yvette Cooper, who I like, to ask her to elaborate on her rabbit hole comment. Reading these threads is reminiscent of Alice in Wonderland at times

How anyone can say the Harry Potter series has no link to the 7 story/archetype ? The orphan making his/her way is a recurring theme in myth and story telling.

I haven't looked at the list of 7 basic plots, but I did read a couple of the earlier HP stories (before I got bored with their rather repetitive nature) This was when they were being condemned in some religious circles for supposedly encouraging interest in black magic and devil worship.

I argued with one or two people that my interpretation was that they were about a ngelected/abused child going to boarding school and finding like-minded friends and teachers who supported him in developing his own talents, against the opposition of some nasty fellow-pupils and some dastardly criminals.

Standard coming-of-age-while-relying-on-friends-not-family plots. Very inspirational for teenagers - and reminiscent of a whole genre of boarding-school books. Should we condemn all those other authors for using the same devices as their predecessors?

trisher

Peasblossom

trisher

Copper3

Women have wombs.
Transwomen do not! No offense, but fact!

A friend of mine had hers removed at 29 because of cervical cancer. My mother had hers removed at 26 are you suggesting once they hadn't a womb they were no longer women?

No, no that’s a fallacious argument.

Akin to

Dogs have tails.
Apes do not have tails.
Therefore dogs are apes.

No logic or intelligence applied there.

There are also believe it or not women who are born without wombs. It's a genetic condition. But apparently they aren't women metro.co.uk/2019/03/31/grandmother-gives-birth-to-her-own-grandchild-as-her-daughter-was-born-without-a-womb-9072378/

Yes which is why, as I said, your argument lacked logic and intelligence of any kind.