Vagina Museum

Does anyone believe that transwomen do not suffer the same oppression and discrimination that women do?

I'll answer you trisher. No, I do not believe that trans women, or trans men, suffer the same oppression and discrimination that natal women do. I do believe that they suffer oppression and discrimination that is unique to their circumstances, choices and way of life and that should be addressed in a similar way to how other minority groups have gained their voices to be heard. The Black Lives Matter movement have a loud, forceful and positive voice that they've used to raise awareness, demand their rights and be heard by those that have sought to deny them. They have not hijacked other oppressed groups in order to gain their voices. And that's why the post suggesting that trans women are "just another type of woman" was so roundly ridiculed and derided; hijacking one suppressed and oppressed group to launch another subjugates them, creates resentment and quietens the voices of natal women. And little by little, natal women are being quietened.

Thanks, I couldn’t see it. ?

FarNorth

^A really beautiful moment to celebrate how the medical community can create a vagina for someone in the same way they can build or rebuild any other missing or lost appendage.^

Oh, don't be so stupid.

So when exactly do biologically female women get anything that's only for them, do you suggest?

Here

I’ll answer you trisher.

No I don’t think they suffer the same oppression and discrimination as women.

Perhaps f someone was trans from an early age it would be just the same. But by the time most transition they have had many formative years presenting and being treated as male and this has had a profound effect upon their attitudes and the way they deal with people and situations.

Added to this they have a stronger physique which means they cannot view physical threat and dominance in the same way. They have a greater capacity for self defence.

So no. I don’t think it can be the same at all.

trisher transwomen who recognise and acknowledge oppression and don't think it's OK to silence someone simlpy because their views don't comply with some standard you have set

to quote myself
Goodness they've even managed to get the dictionary definition of woman, or I ❤️ J K Rowling removed for hate speech if its on a billboard. That's silencing.
why silence either statement just because those facts don't comply with some standard they have set?

GoldenAge are you unaware that 80% or more of transwomen retain their penis and have no intention of having it inverted into a neovagina? Many want to use their penis for sex with women as they identify as transwomen lesbians.

Seems entirely appropriate to me that the Vagina Museum should celebrate transwomen. After all transwomen really do want a vagina and go through a lot of heartache, trouble, pain and money to get one. Having got one they are pleased with it, and have as much right to celebrate finally being close to what they have felt for many years, often since childbirth, as women assigned female at birth.

I've been to quite a few IWD events over the years. Many of them were attended by people who were possibly transwomen. I would no more question their right to be there than I would question any other woman and that includes any right wing women like Thatcher. Of course those women never turn up at things like protests or demos for IWD. Perhaps that 's why I sometimes feel I have more in common with transwomen who recognise and acknowledge oppression and don't think it's OK to silence someone simlpy because their views don't comply with some standard you have set.
I asked a question earlier which no one has answered.
Does anyone believe that transwomen do not suffer the same oppression and discrimination that women do? If they do why shouldn't they join natal women in protesting about it?
The tweets were about women who had faced discrimination that's an acceptable subject for IWD.

I can’t find any response to Violetsky that says she is stupid.

Where is it?

Good posts Smileless2012 and Chewbacca.

Nobody is trying to silence them trisher but we have every right to criticise them for their tweets. As I said in my earlier post maybe we should retitle it International Females Day which will include transmen if they wish. If you haven't noticed it's TRAs and their allies who specialise in the silencing arena. Goodness they've even managed to get the dictionary definition of woman, or I ❤️ J K Rowling removed for hate speech if its on a billboard. That's silencing.

Women are angry because their fundamental rights and safe spaces are being hijacked by a minority of men. You know this perfectly well VioletSky because it's been explained to you by many posters, many times. They are angry, in this particular instance, because one day out of 365 was set aside to celebrate the achievements and unique qualities that is being a woman. To clarify, that's not a male who wishes he was a woman but a natal woman. There are 364 other days in the year that could be used to celebrate all the achievements and unique qualities that being a trans man or trans woman are. It is yet another example of women being told to move over, make room for men, shut up and accept what you're told and we don't like it.

No one is forcing you, or anyone else to engage in these discussions but you're fully aware of the strength of feeling, utter frustration and anger about this subject and so you may well be best hiding the threads if replies to your posts don't chime with your minority ethos.

Your response to my post shows that you don't understand trisher. International Women's day being for women isn't a belief, it's what the day is for.

Intersectional feminists may believe that transwomen are women, but that is their belief, it is not a fact. If those running the museum desire to spread the word about discrimination against women and choose to include transwomen, that is their choice. But saying they are wrong to do so on International Women's day when there are 364 days for them to do so, is not wanting to silence them, it's wanting them to respect that one day of the year for women.

Smileless2012

I think you are missing the point trisher. This thread is not about the Vagina museum per se, it's about the museum choosing to celebrate trans women on International Women's day. There are another 364 days in the year so it would have been more appropriate to celebrate trans women on another day.

No Smileless2012 I fully understand the point some people are trying to make. It's about applying their beliefs to others and insisting that they have no right to tweet unless it corrresponds with their beliefs. Many of the women organising and running the Vagina museum are intersectional feminists and say so on the website. Intersectional feminists believe transwomen are women and therefore for them tweeting about them on IWD is about spreading the word about discrimination against women. You are quite entited to believe they are wrong about that. You are not entitled to silence them.

My goodness. I went straight to sleep last night, no waking to wee, figit, blearilily look at the clock and work out how much sleep I had left and no dreams. Just blinked and it was morning.

Went to work where part of my job is to teach children that they deserve to be loved, accepted and feel safe as their authentic selves and how to create that safe space for others.

Come home, sit down with a coffee and there are 11 comments quoting me, 1 saying I'm not a feminist and 1 calling me stupid.

Most already know I include those transitioning into a woman as women. Already know I am understanding of women's fears. Already know I want to ensure all women are safe and respected and that I believe that is achievable for every woman if we work together instead of against each other.

Just sit down for a moment, take a deep breath and ask yourself how you would feel reading that utter onslaught of anger. I'm not using my fame, money or business to further any kind of trans agenda, I'm just a normal person, not a scapegoat for all the changes you don't like.

Perhaps you might then understand why I end up hiding these threads.

Galaxy

People with dsds have begged not to be used in this way. They find it really offensive. It would be nice if people would stop doing it.

Yes, it's very distressing for people with DSDs to find themselves dragged into debates about trans issues. In any case the condition is far rarer than the number of self-identifying transpeople seems to be, so even if it were the same thing it wouldn't account for more than a fraction of cases.

People with dsds have begged not to be used in this way. They find it really offensive. It would be nice if people would stop doing it.

That article seeks to blur the reality that there are two biological sexes, there is no intersex, third sex, or sex spectrum. The first person to identify and isolate a third sex will win a Nobel prize for science. No person on this planet past or present has been born without the fusion of a large immotile gamete provided by a female and a small motile gamete provided by a male.

From the Forbes article:
The biology of sex is real, but it’s extremely complicated, and there is sometimes no easy way to draw a line between the biologically male and female. According to the BBC documentary, Me, My Sex and I, “There are about a dozen different conditions that blur the line between male and female. They’re known as disorders of sexual development or DSDs…. Altogether, DSDs occur as frequently as twins or red hair.”
Most think chromosomes hold the key to biological sex, but that’s not always the case. Typically, those with two X chromosomes are considered biologically female and those with one X and one Y chromosome are considered biologically male. However, a DSD known as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) leads some to have an X and Y chromosome, but physically appear to be girls. Without genetic testing, babies with AIS are often assigned female sex at birth and are raised as girls. They may not realize they are not biologically female until they hit puberty and don’t begin to menstruate.'
Disorders of sexual development are as common as twins. I do not want these people leading unhappy lives. Also those here who are sure about how to define sex are probably related to one of them!

Male muslims and working class men have been discriminated against for centuries, so I don't think it's a patriarchy v feminists situation at all - it's prejudice/exploitation/religious intolerance, depending on the situation and your point of view.

Your way of applying intersectional feminism is very convenient for the patriarchy, as it's not about women at all, which means that I struggle to see it as feminism. How anyone claiming to be feminist can fail to see the implications of transwomen insisting on being included in something that is (a) about vaginas, which they don't have, and (b) is on IWD, which exists to remember the way in which women have been discriminated against for centuries.

Men, however much they may feel discriminated against now, do not have that history - their place in the world is based on centuries of male domination, primogeniture and legal discrimination. They cannot identify with women who have had none of that. They can sympathise and support us, but pushing in to IWD is exactly the sort of boorish and dismissive behaviour that women like me object to. It is, in fact, one of the reasons why we need female spaces - so that we are not brushed aside to accommodate men's wants.

This is a Forbes article. In reality, biological sex can be very unclear.
www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/?sh=8962c8376b9b

I think you are missing the point trisher. This thread is not about the Vagina museum per se, it's about the museum choosing to celebrate trans women on International Women's day. There are another 364 days in the year so it would have been more appropriate to celebrate trans women on another day.

trisher

Rosie51

the Vagina museum and their right to tweet about what they like on IWD.

Of course they have that right, but if they really celebrate vaginas they could have held back for just one day. Just one day for females out of 365 days in the year. Is that really too much to ask, that biological females can be acknowledged for their sex class and achievements for just one day?

They are intersectional feminists so they recognise transwomen as women. You may not, they do. And therefore for them discriminating against transwomen is just as bad as discriminating against another woman because say she is Muslim, or childless, or working class, or any of the other descriptions the patriarchy has used to divide women. It isn't them who need to hold back. Their right to post as they wish needs to be acknowledged by other women however they feel about transwomen.

Perhaps we need to rename it International Females Day, then we can celebrate females which will of course include transmen should they wish to be included.

I acknowledged their right to post as they wish. I'll not bother visiting the museum as it's message is obviously not what it appears, a celebration of vaginas and the sex class that has them.

www.vaginamuseum.co.uk/exhibitions/currentexhibition
The current exhibition is Periods.
The past one was :
Muff Busters: Vagina Myths and How to Fight Them
(I can't see anything about trans women.)
It all looks interesting. Women's health has been ignored through the ages, and women are still being denied the healthcare they should have had (the recent news about women who were not offered caesareans, when they should have, leading to still born babies). It's all useful information.

Rosie51

^the Vagina museum and their right to tweet about what they like on IWD.^

Of course they have that right, but if they really celebrate vaginas they could have held back for just one day. Just one day for females out of 365 days in the year. Is that really too much to ask, that biological females can be acknowledged for their sex class and achievements for just one day?

They are intersectional feminists so they recognise transwomen as women. You may not, they do. And therefore for them discriminating against transwomen is just as bad as discriminating against another woman because say she is Muslim, or childless, or working class, or any of the other descriptions the patriarchy has used to divide women. It isn't them who need to hold back. Their right to post as they wish needs to be acknowledged by other women however they feel about transwomen.

Sorry but I really dislike the use of 'assigned', a term used by some TRAs to deny the immutability of sex, and assert that people were simply mis-assigned. Nobody is 'assigned' a sex at birth. Sex is observed at birth, and indeed is often observed in utero. None of the midwives in my family have randomly assigned a sex to any baby they've delivered, they have observed the genitals and gone from there. In the rare case of unclear genital formation genetic testing is carried out to establish which sex the infant is.

That aside do transmen gain all the privileges of men? Is that why they rarely need to be at the forefront shouting for their rights? There must be a reason for their lack of prominence and it surely couldn't be that they're biologically female and therefore still don't count.