Vagina Museum

I think it's fair to say that trans women - assigned male at birth - are not biologically women.

But if they identify as women, they are going to face the same discrimination and harassment that biological women suffer. In that respect, we are united.

However, transgenderism has it's own culture and faces different problems to those experienced by biological women.

Both women and trans women are sheltering under the same umbrella, but we are innately two different groups, even though both will sometimes share the same experiences.

I can be standing side by side with a black woman - both of us experiencing discrimination as women. But her experiences will be different from mine. Our unity is in the fact that we both suffer discrimination. And I believe that this is also the case with trans women / biological women. Neither group will have exactly the same experiences as 'women'.

How much we identify with each other is always going to be questionable - and therefore a continuing problem. Some see trans women as male activists dictating terms to women. Maybe some are but equally there must be those who simply want to be identified as women because they identify as women.

It's complex.

Some excellent posts on here; particularly the demolition of drawing parallels between black women and transwomen. It was a particularly silly parallel to make in the first place but Peasblossom has nailed it in her post at 09.26. On Mumsnet the appropriation of womanhood is referred to as WomanFace. Apt I think.

the Vagina museum and their right to tweet about what they like on IWD.

Of course they have that right, but if they really celebrate vaginas they could have held back for just one day. Just one day for females out of 365 days in the year. Is that really too much to ask, that biological females can be acknowledged for their sex class and achievements for just one day?

Yes, it’s always all about the clothes isn’t it, being a woman

I think the case of Philip Bunce is the most Monty Pythonesque scenario I’ve heard so far.
He is a banker working for Credit Suisse. Some days he chooses to dress as a woman, he doesn’t identify as a woman.
The FT listed him for an award for Business woman of the year ( something like that)

FarNorth

^Feminism isn't just about getting the vote it's about making the discussion of things once labelled "women's troubles" acceptable and normal. It's about empowering women to discuss and make sure their needs are met^

So why is it that when women on here say their needs are not met by men being included as women, they are told to shut up?

'Women's troubles' don't all apply to all women, but they definitely never apply to men.

I don't think I have told anyone to "shut up" FarNorth nor indeed have any of the other posters you might identify as trans supportive. I have said repect the intersectional feminist views of those running the Vagina museum and their right to tweet about what they like on IWD. But they are certainly being told that they shouldn't be doing that. So who is doing the silencing around here???
I don't agree with the comments about transwomen. I think transwomen have been subjected to the same and sometimes more discrimination and harassment as natal women, but if you want to believe they haven't the right to join in IWD you are perfectly entitled to think that. Just don't silence other women.

Feminism isn't just about getting the vote it's about making the discussion of things once labelled "women's troubles" acceptable and normal. It's about empowering women to discuss and make sure their needs are met

So why is it that when women on here say their needs are not met by men being included as women, they are told to shut up?

'Women's troubles' don't all apply to all women, but they definitely never apply to men.

I should have been more clear, I suppose.

It was perfectly clear to me, Fanny. What is also clear is that men will never get 'women's troubles'. They don't menstruate, will never give birth, suffer from prolapse or go through menopause. Because they are not women. And before anyone says that not all women give birth or have a uterus, women have female gametes, which are also not present in men.

To stretch the analogy of identifying out of one's race, are there lines that we can all agree can't be crossed? I'm aware that people identify as 'furries' (google them when you're not at work if you aren't aware. Wikipedia is as good a place as any to start), but surely nobody thinks that you can 'become' a human/cat hybrid, or whatever? Or do they?

If someone identified as a surgeon, and insisted that it was just a mistake that deprived them of the right paperwork, would you want them to operate on you? How much of what is in people's heads do the rest of us have to accept?

And good question, Far North. As soon as women get anything, men pounce on it.

It’s not exactly ‘beautiful’ how they create fake penises for troubled girls and young women, is it?

A really beautiful moment to celebrate how the medical community can create a vagina for someone in the same way they can build or rebuild any other missing or lost appendage.

Oh, don't be so stupid.

So when exactly do biologically female women get anything that's only for them, do you suggest?

This is the woman that I was thinking of who posed as being black.
Jessica Krug, she was a Professor at George Washington University

So does anyone seriously think that transwomen have not been subjected to the same prejudices and restrictions as other women?

And I don’t need a lecture about feminism thanks trisher.
I don’t know why you think I needed one.

Trisher
I was referring to the trans takeover on IWD not furthering feminism;
and not referring to the entire Vagina Museum venture.

I should have been more clear, I suppose

trisher

FannyCornforth

I cannot agree that they are ‘moving the cause of feminism forward’ at all trisher

Well when did you last have a conversation about vaginas? Feminism isn't just about getting the vote it's about making the discussion of things once labelled "women's troubles" acceptable and normal. It's about empowering women to discuss and make sure their needs are met

Hmm my last conversation about vaginas was yesterday. Context - the impact on vaginas and women of childbirth and prolapse.

Doodledog

I respectfully disagree.

Foregrounding men in an exhibition about female genitals is setting feminism back exponentially. To do it on IWD does not, to me, indicate great aims and principles - not at all.

No foregrounding, no exhibition. Just a few tweets

Doodledog

I respectfully disagree.

Foregrounding men in an exhibition about female genitals is setting feminism back exponentially. To do it on IWD does not, to me, indicate great aims and principles - not at all.

Another case of hijacking.

FannyCornforth

I cannot agree that they are ‘moving the cause of feminism forward’ at all trisher

Well when did you last have a conversation about vaginas? Feminism isn't just about getting the vote it's about making the discussion of things once labelled "women's troubles" acceptable and normal. It's about empowering women to discuss and make sure their needs are met

FannyCornforth Why is her transformation less valid than a transwomen's? Yes she lied about her ethnic roots, but then again transracial self ID isn't generally accepted so I suppose she felt she had to. Inclusivity would demand she should be accepted into the black community "she is what she says she is" is the mantra isn't it?

Sorry - should have quoted trisher there.

I respectfully disagree.

Foregrounding men in an exhibition about female genitals is setting feminism back exponentially. To do it on IWD does not, to me, indicate great aims and principles - not at all.

I cannot agree that they are ‘moving the cause of feminism forward’ at all trisher

Have a look at the Vagina museum. It's simply young women casting off all the prejudices, harmful myths and dangerous stereotypes which have clouded women in the past, so we can move forward and celebrate. If they choose to include transwomen in that they are perfectly within their rights. You do not have to agree with them, but respect their point of view, put aside your own prejudices, acknowledge they have great principles and aims and that they are moving the cause of feminism forward and tackling subjects that were once taboo.

A nipple created for someone who has lost tissue due to cancer is still a nipple even if it does not have all the functions of one.

Actually it isn't.
It may look similar but it most definitely is not.

Thanks Rosie, you pipped me to it