Vagina Museum

Hmm not sure there is a different way to say it.

Treating gender dysphoria in such a way that a person does not need to transition to improve has failed for most.

The best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. Which means the gender dysphoria is the cause of mental illness not a symptom of mental illness.

Yet I think therapy should remain as its important to get right how far that transition needs to go for the individual. Also, for a small minority, transition has not been the right answer.

I think those minorities matter and their needs must be safeguarded.

There is a lot of twisting and turning going on on this thread, FarNorth.

See my post above, for instance. Schrodinger's trans-identifying prisoners, who when I say should be in male prisons, is indicative of the fact that I don't care about transwomen, but when it's trisher saying it, it means something else (as yet unspecified).

Any comment on the rest of that post, VS?

That's why there's a question mark but I thought I remembered you saying that in previous discussions.

Do I? FarNorth

That would seem rather at odds with what you just quoted me as saying would it not?

Hopefully I get to decide what I do or don't think in feminist circles because if not, that's quite concerning

Of course the therapy should happen first to prevent mistakes
Well it obviously isn't happening for most VS. And you support the idea of self-identification, don't you, with no therapy required?

There are increasing numbers of detransitioners, of both sexes, who are realising that transition was wrong for them. Many of them say that there was next to nothing in the way of assessment or information before they were given hormone treatment and/or surgery.

Sensitive, skilled counseling to explore a person's background to their desire to transition is not 'conversion therapy'.

Doodledog

*Of course it wasn't right or successful but it was certainly understandable.*

Hang on a minute! You are now saying that it was wrong and unsuccessful to put male-bodied rapists in female prisons?

When I said that, I was accused of not caring about transwomen. How does this work?

I realise it is probably pointless to ask, but I would still like an answer to this, please?

Read about it recently

Where does your current preoccupation in conversion therapy come from Violet?
Is it being imposed on trans children or adults? I remember the historical scandals about the use of conversion therapy on gay men. I know some US evangelicals are in favour but otherwise, I’ve not heard of it’s use in UK mental health favilities

That isn't logical FarNorth

Most mental health issues can be treated, even narcissism if they are willing to ask for help.

Yet conversion therapy doesn't work and the only thing found to work is transition.

Transitioning for most is healing

Of course the therapy should happen first to prevent mistakes but when it turns out transitioning is the cure, it's the cure.

The mental health problems of trans people seems always ‘the fault’ of the medics, the parents, teachers, prison officers and of course a society dominated by terfs, or insensitive bigots.
The research from the Tavistock pointed to concerns that the focus on the insistence the child believed s/he was born in the wrong body. There seems to have been disregard or minimal assessment of the influence of attachment needs, adolescent anxiety, family relationships, education, social needs.

From the article linked by trisher :

TERFs refers to people who believe that transgender women should not be allowed in women's only spaces, a view that encourages a fear of transgender women and suggests that they are not, in fact, “proper” women.

www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/innovations/when-will-the-prison-service-act-upon-the-vulnerability-of-transgender-people

Of course they are not proper women, they are men who probably have mental health problems.
Just as people with anorexia are not proper fat people however much they believe that they are.

That article contains a huge amount of illogical thought, especially that someone's idea of their 'gender' should be taken as their sex.

Thank you Doodledog, FarNorth and Iam64 for your succinct posts.

Thank you trisher for these words . . .
I didn't say they should be in a female prison, . . . Of course it wasn't right or successful.
Re the 21 year old murderer, it appears the treatment wasn’t right or successful either, and ended in an unwarranted death and that is to be deplored. As is the unwarranted death of the murderer’s victim.

And how many women take their lives after being raped?

Of course we will never know, as so many rapes go unreported, and the same problem exists as with the dubious figures about attempted suicides amongst transexuals - they are often unreported too.

Does it matter what the circumstances of the murder were? The conviction was presumably murder not manslaughter. The individual murdered someone

Of course it wasn't right or successful but it was certainly understandable.

Hang on a minute! You are now saying that it was wrong and unsuccessful to put male-bodied rapists in female prisons?

When I said that, I was accused of not caring about transwomen. How does this work?

It astonishes me that the whole of society is being changed to go along with pretence, rather than accept that people shouldn't have to fit into stereotypes.

So we agree trisher that transwomen may need help and should not be in females' prison?

FarNorth

trisher can you explain why the possibility of suicide of some men who claim to be women means that those men should be in a prison where women have to be locked in with them?
(Bearing in mind that some of those men made no claim to being women before becoming imprisoned)

Perhaps those men have mental health problems contributing to their suicidal wishes and/or their chosen identity, and those should be addressed rather than have everyone play along with the pretence that they are women?

You see there is the lack of understanding I didn't say they should be in a female prison, I said given the suicide rate it was understandable that the decision was taken to put them into a women's prison. Of course it wasn't right or successful but it was certainly understandable.
I think the view of why they commit suicide and if they have mental health problems is important. One of the transwomen was only 21, if you read an account of her treatment. She didn't receive her drugs in prison, she was denied a razor and hated her face, she was misgendered regularly by the staff. She obviously needed help. She had murdered someone but I don't know in what circumstances. And she certainly didn't deserve to die.

Or perhaps they are just manipulative people, as some criminals can be.

trisher can you explain why the possibility of suicide of some men who claim to be women means that those men should be in a prison where women have to be locked in with them?
(Bearing in mind that some of those men made no claim to being women before becoming imprisoned)

Perhaps those men have mental health problems contributing to their suicidal wishes and/or their chosen identity, and those should be addressed rather than have everyone play along with the pretence that they are women?

trisher
No it's not worth the effort. is that the same as No Debate?
or more likely,
No, she can’t explain it or justify it?

trisher

Doodledog

Whilst you are showing your working out, can you explain how your thought processes work with relation to your statement that not wanting make bodied rapists in women’s jails equates to not caring about transwomen please?

No it's not worth the effort.

??

Doodledog

Whilst you are showing your working out, can you explain how your thought processes work with relation to your statement that not wanting make bodied rapists in women’s jails equates to not caring about transwomen please?

No it's not worth the effort.

Male bodied, obviously.