Vagina Museum

Whilst you are showing your working out, can you explain how your thought processes work with relation to your statement that not wanting make bodied rapists in women’s jails equates to not caring about transwomen please?

Lathyrus

Umm, you’re a bit statiscally muddled there.

First of all I’m sure you can work out that 6 out of 79 isn’t one in 10? Never mind the about. If you’re going to do the about you might just as well about it the other way to 1 in 12..

Secondly transgender people are male and female but then you compare those figures with males only and extrapolate from both a different cohort and from your first inaccurate figures.

Do you want to try again, perhaps more cogently this time?

Sorry should have been 70 transwomen. And I rounded down the number of projected male suicides and prisoners to account for just estimating and not doing a precise figure. 6/70 matches quite well with 8000/81000+
It is any case a huge figure and very unlikely, all it serves to show is how vulnerable transwomen prisoners are compared with other prisoners. I'm sure the judges who put them into women's prisons were worried about the suicide figures in 2015-20. It wasn't acceptable but then so much of what goes on in prisons isn't.
And before anyone jumps in I don't approve of the decisions I can however understand them.

70 not 79. Fat finger.

Umm, you’re a bit statiscally muddled there.

First of all I’m sure you can work out that 6 out of 79 isn’t one in 10? Never mind the about. If you’re going to do the about you might just as well about it the other way to 1 in 12..

Secondly transgender people are male and female but then you compare those figures with males only and extrapolate from both a different cohort and from your first inaccurate figures.

Do you want to try again, perhaps more cogently this time?

Trisher your response to Galaxy doesn’t answer the point she made, simply reiterated yours.

Galaxy

I cant think of a worse message to women and girls than saying because men commit suicide so your boundaries cant matter. I also am very aware that there are very serious concerns about the way suicide statistics have been used in this debate, I think a statement was issued recently with regards to this. Alternative provision should be provided for transwomen and this is beginning to happen in some countries. In addition the suicide rate appears to increase following transition, feminists have been campaigning about this for quite some time, which seems odd if we dont care abour the rate of suicide amongst transpeople.

The statement made about post-transition suicide was made by a right wing Australian Christian lobbyist who campaigned against gay marriage. He misrepresented the study anyway
theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-was-lyle-shelton-right-about-transgender-people-and-a-higher-suicide-risk-after-surgery-55573
Not the sort of person whose opinion I would value.

There were about 70 transgender people in prison in about 2016 at least 6 of those people committed suicide. That's about 1 in 10. There were around 81000 male prisoners if the same proportion had committed suicide there would have been 8000 deaths. Transwomen are obviously more at risk than other prisoners.

I asked if you would put a transwomen who had threatened suicide into a male prison. You said "Yes" I think that shows you don't care about transwomen.
Aha! So now what you think is the arbiter of caring for tw. I wish you’d told us all before. It doesn’t make you right however much you wish it did.
But trisher dear, they wouldn’t be in a male prison, they’d be in your transwomen sections and since they are male, those could perfectly well be attached to a male prison.
I would hope that they, along with anyone else who felt suicidal would be given help and support, whichever prison they were in.
Do you think, by the same argument you use, that since you are happy to have male rapists and abusers in female prisons, whether they’re suicidal or not it shows how little you care about women (AHF)?
(It doesn’t have to be a yes/no answer. I know you don’t do those.)

trisher

^Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.^
You really don't do logic, do you? What is the link between not caring about rapists and not caring about transwomen?
I asked if you would put a transwomen who had threatened suicide into a male prison. You said "Yes" I think that shows you don't care about transwomen
^

I know what I said, and I stand by it. Of course it doesn’t mean that I don’t care about transwomen- even by your standards of twisting things that is a massive leap.

It means that I put the safety of women over the wishes of rapists. Please explain why you don’t? Does your stance mean that you don’t care about women? By your ‘logic’ that would follow.

Should any prisoner who threatens suicide be given special treatment in your world? Or does this only apply to transwomen? Of course (and as I said) suicidal prisoners - whatever their crime - should be looked after, and watched round the clock; but foisting male-bodied rapists onto female prisoners is not the answer. The wishes of men should not take precedence over the needs and safety of women.

I cant think of a worse message to women and girls than saying because men commit suicide so your boundaries cant matter. I also am very aware that there are very serious concerns about the way suicide statistics have been used in this debate, I think a statement was issued recently with regards to this. Alternative provision should be provided for transwomen and this is beginning to happen in some countries. In addition the suicide rate appears to increase following transition, feminists have been campaigning about this for quite some time, which seems odd if we dont care abour the rate of suicide amongst transpeople.

This is an account of 3 of those deaths FarNorth
insidetime.org/third-transgender-prisoner-apparent-suicide-in-little-over-a-year/
Here's more about what happens www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/innovations/when-will-the-prison-service-act-upon-the-vulnerability-of-transgender-people

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.
You really don't do logic, do you? What is the link between not caring about rapists and not caring about transwomen?
I asked if you would put a transwomen who had threatened suicide into a male prison. You said "Yes" I think that shows you don't care about transwomen
^

That we are aware of, there has been one death of a transgender woman in a men's prison each year in 2018, 2017 and 2016, two in 2015, and one in 2013.

What were the causes of those deaths, trisher?
We can't assume that they were solely a result of being in a prison for males. We also can't assume that they were all ''genuine transwomen", whatever those are.
They may have been men who were very disturbed.

What if a transman prisoner threatened suicide if she was not put into a prison for males?
She would not be put there because of danger to herself, caused by her being female. She would, it is hoped, receive help so that she would not commit suicide.
Likewise, it can be recognised that transwomen are male and they can receive help within a non-female prison setting.

JaneJudge

what if people who don't have gender dysmorphia access vulnerable people via changes to law via self ID etc?

Is that not a problem in cuckoo land

There's no need for a change in law. Self-id of trans prisoners is already accepted.

'put the wishes', not 'out the wishes'.

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.
You really don't do logic, do you? What is the link between not caring about rapists and not caring about transwomen?

I care about decent people, and care less about rapists, although as I said, I still believe that they should be protected (from themselves and others) when in jail. The difference is that I wouldn't out the wishes of rapists over the safety of women.

I don’t agree with this form of therapy personally, trisha. But like education people will have their own views on what is effective, so I wouldn’t debate it here.

I do think that a Rape Crisis Centre should offer different forms of therapy not just its preferred model, to cater for the diverse needs of its clients.

I believe that a Centre offering this therapy only is more concerned with serving its own ends. I couldn’t support it and I have to be honest and say that I would hope its public funding would be withdrawn, so that a more inclusive service could be provided.

Hmm, bias
Bias against the rights of women in favour of the rights of transwomen. I see where you’re coming from.

Thanks Lathyrus I do think that MW is probably not the best at communicatingher ideas.
I posted a link to the feminist counselling theory. This is from it Feminist therapy is a person-centered, politically informed model that positions treatment within a cultural context. Its goals are to empower the person in treatment, enabling that person to potentially address aspects of social transformation, nurture the self and establish a strong self-concept, and restructure and enhance personal beliefs about identity. A therapist will generally work to prevent bias, demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of oppression, and offer a genuine, non-hierarchical relationship that emphasizes mutuality and equality. Those in treatment may share their own stories and also hear about the therapist's experiences.

That would seem a reasonable if not ideal compromise.

Of course it would have to apply to all staff including counsellors and Head of Centre.

Personally I don’t think they would agree based on Wadhwa’s rhetoric so far.

How is it any worse to put transwomen who are suicidal into a TW unit in a male prison than to put a TW into a female prison where their presence is distressing and in some cases actually dangerous to women especially vulnerable women? And you talk about being caring. ??

Yes trisher, you’re hedging.

Lathyrus

trisher

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

So as there’s only funding for one do you choose the trans inclusive Centre prevents access for some women or the Centre that would give them access.

Which do you choose?

If there is only one centre perhaps there could be arranged days when the centre would not be open to transwomen, then those women who feel they didn't want to encounter transwomen could use it on those days. I think the assumption that all women who have been raped would not wish transwomen to be present in the same centre is wrong. I'm sure there will be some women who will recognise that transwomen are often fellow victims
I fully expect you now to tell me I am hedging.
But I can't in all honesty deny transwomen who have been raped the access to services. In fact thinking about it I'd have a day for men who have been raped as well perhaps then we would be able to move towards some prosecutions for this crime and wipe out the taboos still attached to it.

what if people who don't have gender dysmorphia access vulnerable people via changes to law via self ID etc?

Is that not a problem in cuckoo land

The only thing that would prevent suicides in prison is a system which didn't put vullnerable people in there. But if we are looking at statistics then we should add those two deaths to the transwomen suicides in male prisons and how ever you look at it the chances of a transwomen committing suicide are higher than male or female prisoners. And as in spite of that two of you would put a transwoman who threatened suicide in a male prison I think yur level of caring for them is clear

trisher

Oh come on Doodledog you can't be claimng there are significant numbers of transwomen in prisons that would match the numbers of men and make any suicides statistically less.
Here's the info for deaths in women's prisons
www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-womens-prisons

Two of the self-inflicted deaths listed above (in 2006 and 2016) were of transgender women held in women's prisons.

From your link trisher, so it would seem being housed with women didn't prevent those two suicides. Every suicide is a tragedy for that person and their family, no matter their sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity if they have one.

Was your answer intended to refer to Doodledog or have you, yet again, confused us with each other, since it was me that searched for statistics?

Are you admitting you made your statement up, plucked that gem from the air, just like when you arbitrarily decided on the allocation of mastectomy figures?