Vagina Museum

Oh come on trisher, where are your yes or no answers?
What’s a significant number? If they are in the secure units you mention, then a significant number can be anything. If they are in womens’ (adult human females) prisons, especially but not exclusively if they are there for assault, intimidation, abuse of AHF, one is too many.

Oh come on Doodledog you can't be claimng there are significant numbers of transwomen in prisons that would match the numbers of men and make any suicides statistically less.
Here's the info for deaths in women's prisons
www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-womens-prisons

trisher

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

Why are you afraid to say where you stand? Who you choose to support?

trisher

Doodledog

(do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring)

as i have said before people used to say "I have nothing against black/gay people I know some" and then proceed to post the most racist/homophobic things you can imagine.

More nasty and personal comments, accusing people of racism, homophobia and the lamest one of all - of having a boring life.

I would send a male rapist to a male jail, whether or not he claimed to be a woman or claimed to be suicidal. It is for the officers in that jail to make sure that he is looked after when he gets there. Many prisoners are suicidal - why should claiming to be female give someone special treatment?

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.

Evidence for this claim? The only official suicide numbers I could find just says the pro-rata is highest for white people. And another one that male prisoners have higher suicide rates than men in the general public. Suicide rates for female prisoners are too small to reliably measure. I couldn't find any data on suicide rates amongst transpeople of either sex.

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/prison-and-custody-incidents/self-inflicted-deaths-in-prison-custody/latest#main-facts-and-figures

www.ons.gov.uk/news/news/maleprisonersare37timesmorelikelytodiefromsuicidethanthepublic

trisher

Knew you couldn't manage a "yes" or "no" answer Mollygo there are things which always have to be taken into consideration

Mollygo

I’m still waiting for your yes/no answers.
Did you read?
yes I would
Now your turn. I’ve said yes I would.

Doodledog

*(do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring)*

as i have said before people used to say "I have nothing against black/gay people I know some" and then proceed to post the most racist/homophobic things you can imagine.

More nasty and personal comments, accusing people of racism, homophobia and the lamest one of all - of having a boring life.

I would send a male rapist to a male jail, whether or not he claimed to be a woman or claimed to be suicidal. It is for the officers in that jail to make sure that he is looked after when he gets there. Many prisoners are suicidal - why should claiming to be female give someone special treatment?

Well at least you can n longer claim to really care about transwomen Doodledog The proportion of suicides amongst transwomen prisoners is significantly higher of course than either male or female prisoners.

trisher

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

So as there’s only funding for one do you choose the trans inclusive Centre prevents access for some women or the Centre that would give them access.

Which do you choose?

Knew you couldn't manage a "yes" or "no" answer Mollygo there are things which always have to be taken into consideration

(do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring)

as i have said before people used to say "I have nothing against black/gay people I know some" and then proceed to post the most racist/homophobic things you can imagine.

More nasty and personal comments, accusing people of racism, homophobia and the lamest one of all - of having a boring life.

I would send a male rapist to a male jail, whether or not he claimed to be a woman or claimed to be suicidal. It is for the officers in that jail to make sure that he is looked after when he gets there. Many prisoners are suicidal - why should claiming to be female give someone special treatment?

I’m still waiting for your yes/no answers, but working on what you claim,
yes I would, because of course they’d be housed in one of your safe transwomen sections wouldn’t they? Unless of course you think they shouldn’t have TW sections at male prisons. Even though TW are male.
I could confuse the issue by saying, “Well it would depend on what they were being put in prison for doing.” But I won’t.

Didn't expect an answer Mollygo
"Yes" woud be the same as killing them wouldn't it???

Your turn first trisher.
I don’t deny TW the right to be TW. I deny the TW who . . . (read previous posts for what they shouldn’t do).
I can’t grant them the right to be women adult human female. That isn’t in my grasp or yours.

Lathyrus If there was funding enough I would have specialist rape centres for every one who thought they needed the help and refuges for every abused person. I'd have specialist ones for adolescents, for gay people, for transgender people and for women. I'd fill them with qualified therapists and staff them with the best support services available. Unfortunately we know this government won't fund them. That they are in fact cutting funding and services and I have no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank as they reflect on how the focus has been shifted from their abysmal funding record to the trans debate, leaving them free to cut as much as they like without a voice being raised.

Mollygo

trisher

^Do you think that male-bodied transwomen should be housed in female prisons, even if they are sex offenders?
Evasive answer 1. when she can’t say no.
There is a transwomen prison unit and that is where they are and should be housed. Why evasive? Do all prisons have such a unit? If there was no such unit or pleas were made by the prisoners e.g. about distance from home, what would you do trisher?^
Of course all prisons don't have such a unit. Per se the unit is where transwomen should be housed and no other considerations given because that is where she is safest and best cared for. How the hell is that evasive! Transwomen should be in transwomen units. For one thing they would be safer than being exposed to some women. I think that is obvious from some of the remarks on these threads.
Evasive answer 2. means trisher doesn’t agree that any already traumatised woman should not be put in the position of having to face a MBTW and puts the responsibility on the traumatised female to say so.

I know women who have very close friendships with transwomen. Are you saying that traumatised women would never form such friendships, or are you denying them the right to choose their own therapist? Some traumatised women may choose not to meet transwomen, not all traumatiised women will behave in this way. You simply want to impose your own prejudices onto women. Which actually proves how inconsiderate you really are. You dislike transwomen therefore all women especially traumatised women must.

The law does not exclude males or transwomen from secure facilities for women
The law excludes men from any facility or place where their presence might prevent other women attending as I think you know.
If you are referring to past judicial decisions where transwomen were sent to women's prisons I think the situation was one which the authorities had massively failed to realise was happening and faced with the suicide of 4 transwomen in male prisons they chose to send transwomen to women's prisons. It is something they are trying to rectify. It was undoubtedly wrong and should have been foreseen. But then prisons are massively underfunded.

If it’s as simple as you say, why not just answer yes or no instead of using obfuscation? Are you afraid to say yes or no?

I’ve noticed you always “know someone” you can use to support your points.
What have womens’ friendships got to do with the issue of having to say you don’t want to talk to a male about the abuse you’ve suffered, instead of knowing that you won’t be faced by a male.
Why do you constantly say I dislike transwomen? (a trisherism coming up) I am friends with several transwomen, but if I had been abused by a man I wouldn’t look to them for support. Denying women the right to secure places without them having to reiterate their concerns about men, including TW is discrimination worthy of the most patriarchal feminist.

Try reading the posts on here. Find me one where any poster has said they dislike transwomen, or are you ‘taking the piss’ again and I didn’t recognise it like you accused me of doing before?

Mollygo as i have said before people used to say "I have nothing against black/gay people I know some" and then proceed to post the most racist/homophobic things you can imagine. Just like happens on these threads. I have nothing against transwomen, but I deny them the right to be women. Which is what they want. What's the difference between that and telling black people to get to the back of the bus? It's inequality. It's judgemental and it's impossible to enforce anyway.

It isn't obfuscation to give a comprehensive answer to a question but here's one for you if you believe in Yes or No answers
Would you send a transwoman who had threatened suicide to a male prison?

trisher

^Do you think that male-bodied transwomen should be housed in female prisons, even if they are sex offenders?
Evasive answer 1. when she can’t say no.
There is a transwomen prison unit and that is where they are and should be housed. Why evasive? Do all prisons have such a unit? If there was no such unit or pleas were made by the prisoners e.g. about distance from home, what would you do trisher?^
Of course all prisons don't have such a unit. Per se the unit is where transwomen should be housed and no other considerations given because that is where she is safest and best cared for. How the hell is that evasive! Transwomen should be in transwomen units. For one thing they would be safer than being exposed to some women. I think that is obvious from some of the remarks on these threads.
Evasive answer 2. means trisher doesn’t agree that any already traumatised woman should not be put in the position of having to face a MBTW and puts the responsibility on the traumatised female to say so.

I know women who have very close friendships with transwomen. Are you saying that traumatised women would never form such friendships, or are you denying them the right to choose their own therapist? Some traumatised women may choose not to meet transwomen, not all traumatiised women will behave in this way. You simply want to impose your own prejudices onto women. Which actually proves how inconsiderate you really are. You dislike transwomen therefore all women especially traumatised women must.

The law does not exclude males or transwomen from secure facilities for women
The law excludes men from any facility or place where their presence might prevent other women attending as I think you know.
If you are referring to past judicial decisions where transwomen were sent to women's prisons I think the situation was one which the authorities had massively failed to realise was happening and faced with the suicide of 4 transwomen in male prisons they chose to send transwomen to women's prisons. It is something they are trying to rectify. It was undoubtedly wrong and should have been foreseen. But then prisons are massively underfunded.

If it’s as simple as you say, why not just answer yes or no instead of using obfuscation? Are you afraid to say yes or no?

I’ve noticed you always “know someone” you can use to support your points.
What have womens’ friendships got to do with the issue of having to say you don’t want to talk to a male about the abuse you’ve suffered, instead of knowing that you won’t be faced by a male.
Why do you constantly say I dislike transwomen? (a trisherism coming up) I am friends with several transwomen, but if I had been abused by a man I wouldn’t look to them for support. Denying women the right to secure places without them having to reiterate their concerns about men, including TW is discrimination worthy of the most patriarchal feminist.

Try reading the posts on here. Find me one where any poster has said they dislike transwomen, or are you ‘taking the piss’ again and I didn’t recognise it like you accused me of doing before?

trisher

You know the more I read on these threads the more I realise that the people who continue to post really don't want solution of any sort.
So transwomen in prisons. Saying "No" they shouldn't be in women's prisons would in some cases be virtually sentencing them to death. Is that OK?
That we are aware of, there has been one death of a transgender woman in a men's prison each year in 2018, 2017 and 2016, two in 2015, and one in 2013.

I’ve suggested a solution, asked if you would support it and you’ve just ignored it.

I guess because it doesn’t really give you anywhere to twist and hide,

Would you support an alternative Rape Centre that would give women a choice of seeking help with and from natal women only. Or is you support for a Centre that acknowledges that a number of rape survivors cannot access its services.

As I said before there is no middle ground here. The Centre has to be one or the other. Where do you stand?

Doodledog

*I know women who have very close friendships with transwomen. Are you saying that traumatised women would never form such friendships, or are you denying them the right to choose their own therapist? Some traumatised women may choose not to meet transwomen, not all traumatiised women will behave in this way. You simply want to impose your own prejudices onto women. Which actually proves how inconsiderate you really are. You dislike transwomen therefore all women especially traumatised women must.*
So many assumptions!

Not wanting women who prefer a female counsellor to have a male-bodied one thrust upon her is not at all the same thing as saying that they will never form a friendship with a transwoman. That is ridiculous. As is the assumption that Mollygo wants to impose anything, that she is inconsiderate or that she 'dislikes transwomen'.

If you are going to be personal and offensive, at least try to adhere to some sort of logic as you do it?

If you are saying traumatised women wouldn't choose a transwomen or couldn't be counselled by a transwomen you are effectively placing your prejudices onto them. If friendships can be formed, succesful counselling can be undertaken. It is the victim's choice and it is not for anyone to impose their views on them. It is just as wrong to insist a woman can't choose a transwoman counsellor as it is to say they must choose one.

You know the more I read on these threads the more I realise that the people who continue to post really don't want solution of any sort.
So transwomen in prisons. Saying "No" they shouldn't be in women's prisons would in some cases be virtually sentencing them to death. Is that OK?
That we are aware of, there has been one death of a transgender woman in a men's prison each year in 2018, 2017 and 2016, two in 2015, and one in 2013.

(do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring) hmm only female security, including armed police at an airport....suspected terrorist who presents as a transwoman may be carrying a bomb and needs searching ie a pat down..... and you accuse me ????

My thinking there could be no space in one of the very limited capacity transwomen units is 'thought up'.... really? Not to catch you out, trying to get a straight answer from someone who twists everything, and evades straight answers.

I know women who have very close friendships with transwomen. Are you saying that traumatised women would never form such friendships, or are you denying them the right to choose their own therapist? Some traumatised women may choose not to meet transwomen, not all traumatiised women will behave in this way. You simply want to impose your own prejudices onto women. Which actually proves how inconsiderate you really are. You dislike transwomen therefore all women especially traumatised women must.
So many assumptions!

Not wanting women who prefer a female counsellor to have a male-bodied one thrust upon her is not at all the same thing as saying that they will never form a friendship with a transwoman. That is ridiculous. As is the assumption that Mollygo wants to impose anything, that she is inconsiderate or that she 'dislikes transwomen'.

If you are going to be personal and offensive, at least try to adhere to some sort of logic as you do it?

A secure unit, in any prison, where a transwoman would have no contact with women, would be fine.
That's not what is happening, tho.

In Scotland, transactivists deliberately campaigned to have transwomen housed in women's prisons.
This is described by James Morton, of Scottish Trans Alliance, in a chapter of the book Trans Britain edited by Christine Burns.
The aim was to have the Prison Service say that there are no problems with doing this and thus others would be persuaded that Trans Women Are Women in every possible situation.
The Prison Service has since admitted that "no evidence of problems" is because they have not kept any separate record of incidents involving transwomen.
All have been recorded as if they involved females only.

Rosie51

trisher You didn't answer Doodledog's question though did you? So I'll ask again. If the transwomen's unit is full with absolutely zero capacity for another inmate do you send the transwoman offender to a male or female facility or do they get a free pass? 3 options, for the sake of clarity would you be so good as to choose one?

If this happened (do you spend all your timethinking up scenarios to try and catch me out- God your life must be boring) I would expect the transwomen to be properly assessed and housed in a secure facility where she would be properly cared for, her propensity for suicide monitored and her safety ensured. As most secure units are in male prisons it would probably be in a male prison. As I have very little knowledge about secure units though, it could be possible that there might be a women's prison with a secure unit which would be suitable. If you have detailed knowledge about secure units I would be delighted to know.

The law says if any woman would not use a service because a transwoman was present they can be excluded I agree with the law and think it should be enforced.

The law also says that single-sex places can exclude transwomen if it is a legitimate means of achieving a justifiable aim.
The law, Equality Act 2010, even gives the example of women's refuges as places where transwomen can legitimately be excluded.

Risk is not the only reason to exclude males from women's services.
If a woman has been told that a service is single-sex, it can be very upsetting to find a male person there even if he poses no risk.
In particular, if a woman believes a service to be single-sex and then realises that someone who appeared to be a woman is actually male - can you not imagine that causing distress?

Why continue to call services single-sex, if they are not?
Why not call them mixed-sex?

'Distance from home' is of no relevance to the housing of prisoners.
Prisoners are often taken to a different part of the country, to a prison suitable for them.

trisher You didn't answer Doodledog's question though did you? So I'll ask again. If the transwomen's unit is full with absolutely zero capacity for another inmate do you send the transwoman offender to a male or female facility or do they get a free pass? 3 options, for the sake of clarity would you be so good as to choose one?