Vagina Museum

^Do you think that male-bodied transwomen should be housed in female prisons, even if they are sex offenders?
Evasive answer 1. when she can’t say no.
There is a transwomen prison unit and that is where they are and should be housed. Why evasive? Do all prisons have such a unit? If there was no such unit or pleas were made by the prisoners e.g. about distance from home, what would you do trisher?^
Of course all prisons don't have such a unit. Per se the unit is where transwomen should be housed and no other considerations given because that is where she is safest and best cared for. How the hell is that evasive! Transwomen should be in transwomen units. For one thing they would be safer than being exposed to some women. I think that is obvious from some of the remarks on these threads.
Evasive answer 2. means trisher doesn’t agree that any already traumatised woman should not be put in the position of having to face a MBTW and puts the responsibility on the traumatised female to say so.

I know women who have very close friendships with transwomen. Are you saying that traumatised women would never form such friendships, or are you denying them the right to choose their own therapist? Some traumatised women may choose not to meet transwomen, not all traumatiised women will behave in this way. You simply want to impose your own prejudices onto women. Which actually proves how inconsiderate you really are. You dislike transwomen therefore all women especially traumatised women must.

The law does not exclude males or transwomen from secure facilities for women
The law excludes men from any facility or place where their presence might prevent other women attending as I think you know.
If you are referring to past judicial decisions where transwomen were sent to women's prisons I think the situation was one which the authorities had massively failed to realise was happening and faced with the suicide of 4 transwomen in male prisons they chose to send transwomen to women's prisons. It is something they are trying to rectify. It was undoubtedly wrong and should have been foreseen. But then prisons are massively underfunded.

Luckily, Edinburgh also has Shakti - a domestic violence charity for women from ethnic minorities.
I'm pretty sure that charity knows what a woman is.

trisher

trisher

OFG Doodledog how many times do I have to say it.
There is a transwomen prison unit and that is where they are and should be housed.
The law says if any woman would not use a service because a transwoman was present they can be excluded I agree with the law and think it should be enforced.
I think victims in court need proper protection, should always have the alternative of presenting their evidence by remote means and should have no need to face any one they are afraid of, listen to them, pay attention to them or in any way be forced to do anything they are uncomfortable with.
As for not lecturing you about Caster Semenya and the other black women being discriminated against in sport well if you actually acknowledged there is a real problem and black women are suffering I wouldn't need to. But not being an intersectional feminist I suppose accepting and acknowledging white privilege is difficult for you.

See above Doodledog
When you can limit your posts I may limit mine until then accept the answer or not, I can quote this as many times as necessary.

Sorry - I missed your reply.

1. Ok, but where there are no transwomen's vacancies? As I understand it there are few. Should a self-identifying transwoman be housed with male or female prisoners when there is no space in a trans wing?

2. Yes, you have said this before, but it doesn't answer the question. Risk assessments are all very well, but a likely scenario is that, if a TRA were doing the assessment they would genuinely believe that a transwoman posed no risk, but a traumatised woman, running from a violent man could well take a very different view (rightly or wrongly). Given that DV refuges were set up by women for women, whose 'side' would you take?

3. Again, you have evaded the question. Can we cut to the chase? Do you think that the victim should have to refer to her rapist as 'she', when he is a male bodied transwoman?

4. As this is a snide and unfounded dig, suggesting that I am racist and you are some sort of White Saviour, I shall count it as another evasion. How anyone can think that you don't make personal remarks is beyond me.

Thanks for posting the Critic piece Chewbacca. Self censorship when a publication doesn’t fit with your ideology sounds a bit Stalinist to me.
If ethnicity was a factor in appointing this individual, I can’t see women from many black or Asian communities wanting their input or advice. The ideology wouldn’t fit with their faith or cultural needs in many cases. Asian women I’ve known have been excluded by their community for naming domestic abuse. Being associated with this individual would only make it worse

AmberSpyglass

Just popping in to say that trans women are women and deserve to be in any space where cis women are. And the law, by and large, supports that.

More like ‘popping in to be offensive to many, many women who consider themselves to be exactly that - women. Not cis women.

It would be nice if she would answer my question too.

Do you think that male-bodied transwomen should be housed in female prisons, even if they are sex offenders?
Evasive answer 1. when she can’t say no.
There is a transwomen prison unit and that is where they are and should be housed. Why evasive? Do all prisons have such a unit? If there was no such unit or pleas were made by the prisoners e.g. about distance from home, what would you do trisher?
Q. Do you think that male-bodied transwomen should be allowed to stay in women's DV refuges?
Evasive answer 2. means trisher doesn’t agree that any already traumatised woman should not be put in the position of having to face a MBTW and puts the responsibility on the traumatised female to say so.
Thinks it OK if a woman is afraid to access a secure environment because there might be a male there.
The law does not exclude males or transwomen from secure facilities for women. Trisha agrees with the law.
I’ll look at the rest of her evasions ASAP.

trisher The law says if any woman would not use a service because a transwoman was present they can be excluded I agree with the law and think it should be enforced. I've also seen you say that we shouldn't blame the transwoman but lack of law enforcement. Given so may organisations are too scared of being called transphobic, and indeed Stonewall (who count a great many official organisations amongst their 'clients') actually misrepresent the law to those diversity partners, there is a lack of willingness to enforce the law. Do you not agree that the transwomen who knowingly insist on being in these spaces, even when it excludes women, are to blame? I thought we normally blame the transgressor whether or not they receive official sanction. Is a burglar only to blame if s/he gets caught and sanctioned?

FarNorth

You want Mridul Wadhwa's own words trisher.

Here is a link to a direct quote :

forwomen.scot/10/08/2021/the-real-crisis-at-rape-crisis-scotland/

Within that, there are also links to audio and transcript of the complete podcast of Mridul Wadhwa.

Thanks FarNorth I have read that before and listened to the podcast.
I have no idea why MW was appointed. I think some of her language sometimes seems to be combative, but I am aware it is a second language and allowances may be necessary. As I understand it she isn't a therapist she's an administrator.
I do think that both sides on this entrenched argument are doing a disservice to women. MW would do better to stop discussing therapies and admit it isn't her job, and the anti-trans brigade should stop using every opportunity to push their own agenda. The only satisfactory conclusion to this would involve compromise on both sides.

trisher

OFG Doodledog how many times do I have to say it.
There is a transwomen prison unit and that is where they are and should be housed.
The law says if any woman would not use a service because a transwoman was present they can be excluded I agree with the law and think it should be enforced.
I think victims in court need proper protection, should always have the alternative of presenting their evidence by remote means and should have no need to face any one they are afraid of, listen to them, pay attention to them or in any way be forced to do anything they are uncomfortable with.
As for not lecturing you about Caster Semenya and the other black women being discriminated against in sport well if you actually acknowledged there is a real problem and black women are suffering I wouldn't need to. But not being an intersectional feminist I suppose accepting and acknowledging white privilege is difficult for you.

See above Doodledog
When you can limit your posts I may limit mine until then accept the answer or not, I can quote this as many times as necessary.

You want Mridul Wadhwa's own words trisher.

Here is a link to a direct quote :

forwomen.scot/10/08/2021/the-real-crisis-at-rape-crisis-scotland/

Within that, there are also links to audio and transcript of the complete podcast of Mridul Wadhwa.

trisher

Lathyrus

I particularly note that Wadhwa admits that there are Rape survivors who do not use the Rape Crusus Centre because of the policy of inclusion of transwomen.

Clearly they will have to address their “bigotry” before they can access help at the Centre because their fear of males means they won’t even go near the door.

There is a clear choice here. Provide a service for them that they feel able to access or provide a service that includes transwomen.

I would support the former. Trisha would support the latter. She favours transwomen, But she can’t pretend she supports both.

I suppose that report in the Critic will really encourage women to seek help. It is a tragedy and neither MW nor The Critic would seem to have those women's best interests at heart. Both are intent on pursuing some agenda of their own. I suspect one reason MW was appointed was because of her ethnic origins and the difficulties of dealing with violence against women in minority communities an area she has experience of.

Perhap. The irony being that women from those ethnic communities are even less likely to access services that include transwomen who are intact males.

Would you support a separate facility that ensured there would be natal women only? A peer to peer facility? To give these survivors the support they need?

If there were such a facility and a choice it would become clear which was the one that most rape survivors wanted. Which should, I think be the most important thing.

At about 2.20, in this video, MW makes clear that he did not admit his male sex at interview.

youtu.be/HT_ryngVhcU

I think you will find I have answered them Doodledog the appropriate question then is why won't you listen to my answers?
I respectfully disagree that you have answered them. In any case, why not just do it again, rather then dodge the issues on yet another thread?

Four simple questions, four simple yes or no answers. Here they are again, as I know you don't like to 'trawl back':

Do you think that male-bodied transwomen should be housed in female prisons, even if they are sex offenders?

Do you think that male-bodied transwomen should be allowed to stay in women's DV refuges?

Do you think that transwomen should be able to compete against women in sport, even when the sport requires physical strength?

Do you feel that chosen pronouns should be used at all times, even in a court, and even when using them is clearly distressing to the victim?

Lathyrus

I particularly note that Wadhwa admits that there are Rape survivors who do not use the Rape Crusus Centre because of the policy of inclusion of transwomen.

Clearly they will have to address their “bigotry” before they can access help at the Centre because their fear of males means they won’t even go near the door.

There is a clear choice here. Provide a service for them that they feel able to access or provide a service that includes transwomen.

I would support the former. Trisha would support the latter. She favours transwomen, But she can’t pretend she supports both.

I suppose that report in the Critic will really encourage women to seek help. It is a tragedy and neither MW nor The Critic would seem to have those women's best interests at heart. Both are intent on pursuing some agenda of their own. I suspect one reason MW was appointed was because of her ethnic origins and the difficulties of dealing with violence against women in minority communities an area she has experience of.

I stopped reading The Critic some time ago Chewbacca I choose to read objective and analytical reporting and journalists who do not have such an obvious agenda. It's a pity they choose to present their arguments in such ways. Perhaps they think it gives them more weight. Acknowledging the very real and helpful process of reframing trauma instead of out and out condemnation might help.
But hey a transwoman said it so it must be wrong.
It is very possible that Mridul Wadwha is biased and has a hidden agenda but if so I would prefer to read her words and judge for myself rather then have such an emotive and judgemental piece of journalistic rabble-rousing to decide by.
As for the statement about fascists and the anti-trans movement. Well fascism has always restricted sexual diversity so if socialist women choose to present the same views isn't it inevitable that they will be classed as the same?

I particularly note that Wadhwa admits that there are Rape survivors who do not use the Rape Crusus Centre because of the policy of inclusion of transwomen.

Clearly they will have to address their “bigotry” before they can access help at the Centre because their fear of males means they won’t even go near the door.

There is a clear choice here. Provide a service for them that they feel able to access or provide a service that includes transwomen.

I would support the former. Trisha would support the latter. She favours transwomen, But she can’t pretend she supports both.

And stoptrying to blame a transwoman for something she really isn't responsible for

Do you get your information from the Beano? This is a long read, and I know you struggle, but take it bit by bit. The emboldened bits are Wadwha's own words:

Tuesday 14 September, Mridul Wadhwa, the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis, appeared at a virtual meeting in Sheffield titled, “Building Intersectional Inclusion in Rape Crisis Services”.

Wadhwa is a trans-identified male and arrived hot off the heels of a talk with “The Guilty Feminist” where Wadhwa controversially called female survivors of sexual violence “bigoted” and advised that they would have to “be challenged on your prejudices” and “reframe your trauma”. Feminist women were, therefore, keen to hear what would be said at this latest talk before women’s sector professionals working with victims and survivors of sexual and domestic abuse.

I hadn’t expected the content to be so blatantly aggressive towards the decades of work of feminist women in the field of male violence against women. After a wandering preamble about intersectionality, Wadhwa announced that Rape Crisis history was unclean.

ERCC [Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre] has been a trans inclusive space for a really long time.. so it had to really wash and clean its history of the perception of rape crisis centres not being inclusive of trans people.

This is a grim image indeed with horrific connotations. The Rape Crisis movement built in the 1970s by radical feminist women was a political act to challenge the violence of men and provide women with female-only space for safe recovery. Yet here was a trans-identified man characterising that political aim as filthy and declaring the intention to “cleanse” that space of those women. Declaring an intention to remove female people from women’s history is a politically aggressive and supremely arrogant act by Wadhwa.

Though the talk kept returning to intersectionality, frequently conflating the oppressions faced by women of colour with those of trans identified men, it became blatantly clear that Wadhwa had a weighty agenda hidden within the rambling intersectionality narrative. The motive of this talk revealed itself as persuading, even manipulating, women’s service providers to commit to blanket inclusion of trans identified males into women’s services. Not only this, but to ensure that the needs of those males were prioritised above female victims of male violence. As Wadhwa informed the audience:

Being really radical in our inclusion of those who are marginalised does not discriminate against those who have relative privilege in our society.

There is a breath-taking cruelty in the framing of women who have been raped as “privileged” and, as Wadhwa went on to stress, that some (meaning trans identified men) are “more marginalised”. The blithe dismissal of women who have been raped or abused was a recurring theme of the talk. What was also sensationally revealed is that women in Scotland are self -^excluding from Rape Crisis from fear of encountering male people who identify as trans. As^ Wadhwa explained:

You have large groups of survivors, some are not using our services because they see us as trans inclusive and feeling that they may be exposed to… er… to an issue that they are not prepared to deal with.

Whilst there is clear obfuscation by Wadhwa about the “issue” survivors are concerned about, it is abundantly clear that what those women who have been raped wish to avoid, is a man, however that man may identify. They are tragically holding back from the help and the
services they desperately need because of this CEO and the decisions made about including trans-identified men in a service for female survivors of sexual violence.

The talk also suggested again that women must be re-educated if they hold a view about sex and identity:

We have to learn to be not transphobic, because our society is transphobic.
In a world where feminist women have learned that any mention of the female body is “transphobic”, it is not unusual to see this kind of rhetoric expressed without qualification. But to suggest that women who have just been subjected to an act of sexual violence must first “learn” to respect the identity choices of male people, before they can receive help after a male person has raped them, is callous and vicious in the extreme. No service for women should withhold help from women who are not “nice”, “kind” or ideologically or politically in line with those providing those services. When a woman has been raped, it is not the time to accuse her of “wrong think”.

Wadhwa smeared and attacked women who had organised a peaceful protest in Scotland against attacks on women’s rights by the Scottish Parliament. Wadhwa insisted:

But more and more of them exposing themselves as being on the right and being very comfortable associating with fascists.
This was a clear attempt to discredit any woman, the majority of whom are socialist, who disagree with extreme gender ideology. Many of those women are feeling politically distanced from their own left-wing roots due to the misogyny of left-wing men who target them as “TERFs”. This term is the new way of calling women “bitch” under the guise of being “progressive”. Standing up for your rights as women, as part of the feminist movement, is not fascism and we all know it. The cry of “Women won’t wheesht” has become the feminist statement of defiance against those who would silence us.

When the dialogue moved on to how raped women must refer to their rapist, Wadhwa was again confusing in expression, saying:
If you have a trans person on your case load or if somebody has experienced sexual violence from someone with a protected characteristic and they are talking about them in a stereotypical way, um… as perpetrators and then stereotyping the community.

To decipher, what is being asked of female victims here is that they do not refer to their perpetrator as male if they identify as female. To tell women how to speak about the man who has raped them is a truly horrific thing to do.

What women are now asking is, how long can Wadhwa continue deter women from accessing the services they need? Women built Rape Crisis. Our movement doesn’t need “cleaning” —
it’s Rape Crisis that needs to get their house in order, and they should start with Mridul Wadhwa.

Source: The Critic

Here's a link for those who are interested in feminist theory www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/types/feminist-therapy

Doodledog

trisher

Do you know I've answered all these questions before. The anti-trans ideaology seems to be if we keep hammering at it she's going to crack. I've got news for you sisters there is nothing feminist about accusing and denigrating another woman, but I can see it is necessary to try and maintain your stance that everything is the fault of transactivists in the light of an awful lot of evidence that transpeople are still victimised.

No, don’t try twisting things again. You professed puzzlement as to why people ‘ascribed’ beliefs to you, so I told you. You haven't ‘answered’ these questions before- the best we can hope for is a lecture on black female athletes or a disclaimer about risk assessment.

Your refusal to answer illustrates why ‘some people’ might think you subscribe to those views though.

I think you will find I have answered them Doodledog the appropriate question then is why won't you listen to my answers?

Chewbacca

trisher She did not say before a raped woman could be helped at that rape crisis centre, they would "first have to address their prejudices she said that at some point in her journey a woman subjected to violence might choose to face her prejudices, and that might be part of her recovery and of helping her from entering into abusive relationships

Utter, total and complete nonsense trisher. I've seen you put selective spin on posts in the past but none of this magnitude. THIS is his statement:

But I think the other thing is that sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. And so, you know, it is not discerning crime. But these spaces are also for you. But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices, because how can you heal from trauma and build a new relationship with your trauma, because you can’t forget, and you can’t go back to life before traumatic incident or traumatic incidents. And some of us never, ever had a life before traumatic incidents. But if you have to reframe your trauma, I think it is important as part of that reframing, having a more positive relationship with it, where it becomes a story that empowers you and allows you to go and do other more beautiful things with your life, you also have to rethink your relationship with prejudice. Otherwise, you can’t really, in my view, recover from trauma and I think that’s a very important message that I am often discussing with my colleagues that in various places. Because you know, to me, therapy is political, and it isn’t always seen as that.

Mridul Wadhwa, Guilty Feminist podcast

There are no choices for the rape victim in this statement. Reframe your trauma by accepting *that a male can be a female.*

IF you have to reframe your trauma no imperative there.
And No FIRST either . It is part of a journey you choose to take (or not). It isn't a transactivist theory. It is a feminist theory. Google it Chewbacca
And stoptrying to blame a transwoman for something she really isn't responsible for. It's a feminist theory developed and used by feminists.

It tells the woman that she bears no guilt and no responsibility Are you having a laugh? No guilt and no responsibility??? Unless she believes that a male cannot be a female, in which case, she's a bigot and will first need to reframe her trauma. And unless she's so traumatised by her assault that, quite understandably, she doesn't want a male anywhere near her, in which case she'll need to reframe her trauma.

Go and tell the female rape victims in Scotland your views trisher then come back and let us know how you get on.

trisher

Do you know I've answered all these questions before. The anti-trans ideaology seems to be if we keep hammering at it she's going to crack. I've got news for you sisters there is nothing feminist about accusing and denigrating another woman, but I can see it is necessary to try and maintain your stance that everything is the fault of transactivists in the light of an awful lot of evidence that transpeople are still victimised.

No, don’t try twisting things again. You professed puzzlement as to why people ‘ascribed’ beliefs to you, so I told you. You haven't ‘answered’ these questions before- the best we can hope for is a lecture on black female athletes or a disclaimer about risk assessment.

Your refusal to answer illustrates why ‘some people’ might think you subscribe to those views though.

trisher She did not say before a raped woman could be helped at that rape crisis centre, they would "first have to address their prejudices she said that at some point in her journey a woman subjected to violence might choose to face her prejudices, and that might be part of her recovery and of helping her from entering into abusive relationships

Utter, total and complete nonsense trisher. I've seen you put selective spin on posts in the past but none of this magnitude. THIS is his statement:

But I think the other thing is that sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. And so, you know, it is not discerning crime. But these spaces are also for you. But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices, because how can you heal from trauma and build a new relationship with your trauma, because you can’t forget, and you can’t go back to life before traumatic incident or traumatic incidents. And some of us never, ever had a life before traumatic incidents. But if you have to reframe your trauma, I think it is important as part of that reframing, having a more positive relationship with it, where it becomes a story that empowers you and allows you to go and do other more beautiful things with your life, you also have to rethink your relationship with prejudice. Otherwise, you can’t really, in my view, recover from trauma and I think that’s a very important message that I am often discussing with my colleagues that in various places. Because you know, to me, therapy is political, and it isn’t always seen as that.

Mridul Wadhwa, Guilty Feminist podcast

There are no choices for the rape victim in this statement. Reframe your trauma by accepting that a male can be a female.

Iam64

trisher

Chewbacca

That was Mridul Wadwha Fanny and there was, and still is, outrage over his comments that before a raped woman could be helped at that rape crisis centre, they would "first have to address their prejudices". This means that any woman rape or assault victim would NOT be allowed to ask to be examined, cared for or supported by a natal woman and would have to accept that THERE may well be men there too. But it's all fine because Wadwha and his ilk are confident that a victim of male rape and violence won't mind being intimately examined by a man.

Honestly do you never get tired of posting inaccuracies?? She did not say before a raped woman could be helped at that rape crisis centre, they would "first have to address their prejudices she said that at some point in her journey a woman subjected to violence might choose to face her prejudices, and that might be part of her recovery and of helping her from entering into abusive relationships
Basically it is about empowering women so they do not simply accept a role of victim but recognise the patriachy how it operates and the roles it assigns people. But hell that might mean women become powerful and you wouldn't want that would you?

at some point in her journey a woman subjected to violence might choose to face her prejudices and that might be part of her recovery and of helping her from entering into abusive relationships

This is victim blaming at its best. The fact it comes from s/he adds to the offence caused. Someone who lived the bulk of their life as a man should be very careful before heaping judgement onto women fleeing male violence. S/he needs to focus in their own journey and how on earth did someone with these attitudes get to be working in a rape crisis centre

It isn't "victim blaming" it is in fact exactly the opposite. It tells the woman that she bears no guilt and no responsibility. It is in fact a basic feminist theory of support and counselling based on good research and applied in many counselling situations. It aims to enable the woman to move on knowing that she isn't at all to blame that it is the societal norms which encourage and develop male violence. Just try googling feminist theories of rape counselling, and addressing partriarchal norms will come up on any paper you read about this.
Honestly the standard of research and enquiry into what things actually mean is lower than those of the Daily Fail