What happened to women's liberation?

Not all mothers are good at the job of mothering, whether they work or not. What I’m very sure of is that if a mother isn’t happy with her choices, her children won’t be happy either. I’ve always felt the worst kind of mother is the martyr who compromises her own happiness and makes others feel guilty. I don’t think it’s much to do with the original aims of women’s liberation, which have been achieved - it’s perfectly possible to ‘have it all’ -but you are the only one who can define what your own ‘all’ actually is.

women can now have careers, but they still mostly retain their role in the home: cooking etc. So they have gained little.

Why do you think this, Luckygirl? There surely can't be many modern relationships where women STILL take on all the domestic chores? You almost sound as if that's what's expected!

As for a woman feeling that she 'must pursue a career' - well why not? We are educated to and beyond the standard that men are. We are bright, clever people with potential to make a huge difference to the world of work. Why settle for mopping the kitchen floor when you've got a PhD? Would any man expect to do that? I do hope there's no-one on this thread who is still, in 2022, expecting their female family members to be under-achievers if they have a lot to offer.

That would depend on a person's idea of achievement, though, and will vary.

It’s very difficult being a high achiever if you have a young family.
Children get sick ( a lot! ) school finishes at 3pm, there’s 3 months a year when they’re not even at school. It’s really hard to juggle it all & not feel guilty.
Plenty of women successfully work full time of course, but it’s impossible for many, not because they’re not really intelligent, but because they don’t want to be away from their children all day every day.
I don’t think men ever feel that torn.

While I don't for one second regret having my children, I know I could not have been a full-time, stay-at-home mum. I'm just not cut out for looking after small children all day, every day. I would have suffered, but more importantly, so would they. They grew up healthier and happier for having a mum who worked - although I did go down to part-time hours after my second child was born. I was lucky in that both my mother and my mother-in-law were able to help out with some of the childcare, but they both also went to a fantastic local nursery.

Are men who choose to do the childcare side of family life under achievers?

It’s not that difficult Kandinsky if my experience was anything to go by. I spaced my children out so the need to take days off work when they were unwell was reduced, my husband and I split time off between us and both saved two weeks holiday in case we needed it, which we took together at the end of the leave year if we hadn’t used it. My two both went to school breakfast club and after school club so solved the issue of start and finish times. School holidays were more of a challenge, but we managed pretty well between us and friends. It’s absolutely the case that where there’s a will there’s a way.

I gave up a well paid job in management to be a 'stay at home' mum to my 1st and later 2nd child. People were openly rude in their comments as to how I could give up such a good job to 'just' be a mum! I never, ever regretted leaving work. You cannot get those first few years back and, once they start school, everything changes. Once my 2nd started school I held down various part-time jobs always making sure I could take and pick up from school. It wasn't financially easy. We didn't have holidays (never mind holidays abroad!). I've never owned my own car. We 'made do' and they were some of the happiest times of my life. Now in my mid-60's and my first born has a 2 year old and has also been a stay at home mum. However, she recently started a part-time job which she enjoys and I fully support this decision. It just wasn't for me.

Women want different things. Some women will not be happy if they do not have a career other women have different priorities. Neither is right or wrong. What I object to is this idea that women who do not have phds or whatever, or do and choose not to use them in the world of work are underachieving. Life is more complicated than that and motherhood and the problems life in general can throw at you change your priorities. Of course this can be similar for men but I don't believe becoming a parent affects men in quite the same way.

My dd is a d@I manager and has worked to help woman in the business area. Seeing woman juggle, home, school and work she didn’t want to be in that situation. So she never had children.

I worked part time when my children went to school so I could see them to school in the morning and be there for them when they came home at 3.30pm. I didn't have any family nearby to help. In my early Health Service days you couldn't pay into the pension scheme if you worked part time. Consequently I only have a small health service pension which came from when I was able to start full time. I resent this so much even now. I looked after my children and worked but was penalised for all that hard work when I retired.

I agree LuckyFour. Women who stayed at home with their children were penalised pension wise. I think there is something now called home responsibilities set up by HMRC which is supposed to address this problem but too late for women of our generation. Divorced sahm of our generation are often in an even worse position

I feel Women's Lib got hijacked by the Feminist movement. I don't think the WL women ever hated men the way the Feminists do. Feminists want equality as long as they are better than men.

Scuse me - ‘women’s lib’ is a feminist movement.

Not true about 'Home Responsibilities' anna. I have got it for neary all my time as a SAHM. My eldest is 51 this year, youngest 35.

I say this every time this comes up - I was not a parasite. DH and I were equal parts of a team.

Honestly you can understand why some people find fault where there’s none. They would cause a fight in an empty room.
Hitgere I know what I said and it’s not your definition. There is good and bad both sexes, I am just tired of politically correct terminology, having to be so careful every comment that gets twisted, like the Woke brigade.

I had my first child at age 32, by that time I'd worked for 15 or so years. I then stayed at home until my youngest went into school full time then I went back out to work mornings, I was lucky I worked for my husband's business so I could work around my children and did bits and pieces of work from home when I could fit it in, in the school holidays. I never felt like a parasite ever!

I'm just wondering how the logistics of taking a very new baby into the office actually works, only from my memories the palaver of feeding, winding, changing and settling could take several hours, after all it's not something one can hurry along, as all the professional advice was "go at the pace of the baby" and lets face it they could fall asleep mid feed. Repeat at intervals throughout the day, just pondering how any work would get done, not to mention how colleagues would feel about the work place being turned into a nursery..........just wondering ?

I was never a women's libber. I remember saying, many, many years ago 'be careful what you wish for' with regard to the workplace.
Maybe this is what I foresaw - I really can't remember my thought process at the time.

There's still some way to go in terms of equality. Much less discrimination and deliberate bias now, but still a huge amount of inequality in the way the practical details of everyday life and the workplace are designed and the different effects this usually has for men and for women. " Invisible Women" by Caroline Criado Perez makes fascinating reading. One of the things she notes is that the countries which introduced a higher proportion of paternity leave and on a " use it or lose it" basis, found improvements in women's ability to return to work and have successful careers ( eg Sweden and Iceland) . Women should not feel pressurised in either direction. A lot depends as well on the expectations/ relationship of the couple.

I never worked after my first child was born in 1947. I suggested to my husband when my children were both at school that I went back to work (Secretary) and he said he didn’t want other people fetch them from school. He was not a well person having been wounded in France after being in the Dday landings.
We bought a house that needed a lot of work . My husband suffered from Menieres Disease so I did most of it. We had second hand furniture and carpets but were happy. Made all my and daughters dresses etc, knitted for other people.
I grew all our vegetables. Joined the WI. Went to classes on various handicrafts, lampshades etc. Ran classes at my own WI. On what I had learned. And country dancing.
On various committees and was delegate on County and National WI meetings (new handmade hats learned at Millinery Classes). There were still mental hospitals then so became Friend of the hospital and visited patients to cheer them up. Rode every where on my bike.
Was always home when the children came home from school.
Did all the house painting and decorating.
Holidays and weekends spent camping.
We were a very happy family.
Not long ago a neighbour was surprised that I never went out to work. Asked what she had done. In a factory on a line filling up detergent bottles!
Trouble nowadays is that couples want all new furniture kitchen, second car, TVs etc all at once. Also marriages don’t
last if they do get married that is.
When my husband died at the age of 57 it was like losing part of me.
Our motto was Poor but content is rich enough.

My children were born in the 1960's,and I didn't go back to full time work till the younger was at secondary school. When she started primary school I had various part time jobs that fitted around school hours. Tbh those early years of childhood are so fleeting and I loved every minute of those years spent being a SAHM. No we weren't well off at all,but like others didn't hanker particularly after material things, they were happy days and that was enough. I too remember hot summer days with friends and the 'kids' spent by the local swimming pool, (6d all day!) and at each others houses for coffee and laughter. It may have cost me my career, material wealth, and a better pension, but I don't regret it for moment and certainly never ever felt like a parasite, DH never considered that I was one and we are still happily married to this day.

I was lucky to be home with my children and started work again when the youngest went to senior school. A friend who is ten years younger had a career, and has always worked, starting back from the time her daughter was five months old. She found the hardest thing was that all the childcare was hers to sort out - her OH seemed to feel that although she was the higher earner and often worked longer hours, if the childminder was ill, or the child, it was up to her to find an alternative for the baby. That's not equality - and it happens too much it seems.

Sadly- so true. I admire your strength, and that you kindly persevered. I hope your reward now is loving respect from those in your life.

I couldn’t agree more. We WERE free to be mothers home makers etc. then women starting looking over the fence wanting things that weren’t meant for them to carry.

Yes women know your place.