Church of England -why aren't you asking 'What is a Man?'

How many is enough?

www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment

www.teenvogue.com/story/woman-mistaken-transgender-bathroom-attack

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787

www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2017/08/21/25364977/savage-love-letter-of-the-day-cis-woman-mistaken-for-trans

www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/06/cancer-survivor-hits-out-at-bathroom-bill-after-she-is-mistaken-for-trans-woman/

The lady who had cancer and a double mastectomy was deeply upsetting to me.

Is that enough? I could find more but these are ones I remembered.

My parents' generation and those before would be totally bemused by the question What is a woman? To them it would be glaringly obvious

There have always been transwomen getting quietly on with their lives and most not wanting all this publicity.
This has gone beyond ridiculous now.

Not recent then? All about 5 or 6 years ago? And loooonnnnngggg before the reported sexual offences against women, carried out by men who claim to be women, that have been detailed on these threads? just as I thought

There have always been transwomen getting quietly on with their lives and most not wanting all this publicity. Precisely so AGAA4; the trans rights activists and their allies have done those people no favours whatsoever.

I agree, most tran people were quietly getting on with their lives.

We didn't know they were using the bathrooms and the changing rooms.

Then they were given official rights and protections and suddenly people knew they were there or thought they knew, they don't always get it right.

Now trans people don't feel safe using bathrooms and changing rooms. As of we don't all release the same waste.

Now some cis women aren't safe using bathrooms or changing rooms.

In fact, it's not just in the bathrooms and the changing rooms they are now less safe it is everywhere.

Now companies and premises are having to stand up and show that they won't discriminate and won't allow discrimination and OK occasionally they get it a bit wrong but they are trying to do the right thing.

Now platforms are being given to the most extreme views on either side with ordinary cis women and trans women who just want to quietly get on with life dragged into the debate and then held up as pariahs for every example that can be found of a stranger masquerading as something they aren't to cause harm or simply enjoying causing harm.

It's bonkers and depressing.

Stomps off

FarNorth - this from www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

The UK government defines sex as:

- referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
- generally male or female
- something that is assigned at birth

The UK government defines gender as:

- a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
- where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

It may come as a surprise that all humans do not fit into the binary model of all male or all female.
I know this is not particularly relevant to a trans discussion but sex is certainly nuanced.
There are estimated 1:1000 babies born “intersex”, and this is not always apparent at birth, and not necessarily dependent on appearance of genitalia.
There are also many more Karyotype chromosome variations ie other than the XX female and XY which is thought to define male and female.
Before dismissing this as rubbish check out the UK Intersex Association. ukia.co.uk for relevant information.
Transsexual is completely different of course.

they get it a bit wrong but they are trying to do the right thing
Do you think? So removing a 16 year old girl's rights to be washed, dressed, toileted and have her sanitary wear changed by a woman is getting it a bit wrong? Whilst championing the rights of a man to be "like a woman" and have free acess to a woman's safe spaces, we're to completely bypass the rights of vulnerable women, of all ages, who in many cases wouldn't even understand that they've been compromised and certainly wouldn't be able to report it (even if they were believed).
A bit wrong doesn't cover it.

wear changed by a woman should read wear changed by a man who feels like a woman

I am not a cis woman. I am a woman. My sex was not assigned at birth. It was decided at my conception.

Just to be clear.

* Chewbacca* I wish you could see my face...

You know women's rights to safe spaces are protected too and you know I agree cis women should have the right to those safe spaces and to choose who cares for them...

So this is just an example of what I mean when I mentioned ordinary cis women and trans women being made pariahs....

Also... you forgot the sometimes when you quoted me.

Correct Wheniwasyourage; it has been pointed out many times that women find the term "cis woman" offensive but some people continue to use it.

I'm forever grateful that I cannot vs!

Can I ask very politely that the term "cis" is not used.

Chewbacca

Correct Wheniwasyourage; it has been pointed out many times that women find the term "cis woman" offensive but some people continue to use it.

Yes, I know, Chewbacca, but it seems to be popping up a lot on this thread, and I think it needs to be challenged when it does so.

I don't recall hearing the term "cis men" bandied about in the same way...

Wheniwasyourage & ilovecheese I completely agree with you and, as I said upthread, the prolific user of the term has been repeatedly requested not to use it, and the reasons why have been explained, but continues anyway. Make of that what you will.

Trans women are women ergo, we have cis and trans as a useful language tool.

Especially useful in protecting cis women's rights and safe spaces.

I suppose the C of E bigwigs have to comply with Christian symbolism about femaleness and maleness.

Those of us whom you would call "cis" women, VioletSky, do not need a new name to find protecting our rights and safe spaces important!

I find misgendering trans people offensive.

Like calling trans women a "bloke" or "man" or "he".

I'm not even a hundred percent sure where the law stands on misgendering... as articles have been posted tht seem to suggest it is not allowed in court.

So either we all agree we don't offend each other or we have a discussion like adults and accept that we don't find the same things offensive...

I am not doing it otherwise I am going to be here all day saying I find xyz offensive please stop and the whole discussion will be shut down

VioletSky

Trans women are women ergo, we have cis and trans as a useful language tool.

Especially useful in protecting cis women's rights and safe spaces.

Fact or just your opinion?

I am insulted by your use of cis woman about me. I am a woman. I am not a feeling. I am not womanface. I am a woman.

VioletSky

Trans women are women ergo, we have cis and trans as a useful language tool.

Especially useful in protecting cis women's rights and safe spaces.

What are women's rights and spaces being protected from, in your view, VS?

I'm not even a hundred percent sure where the law stands on misgendering... as articles have been posted tht seem to suggest it is not allowed in court.

You must have missed the Maya Forstater ruling last week then.

I'm sorry but not sure what I or transwomen can do to reassure your womanhood.

Why is your perception of self not strong enough for a distinction that allows cis women and trans women to celebrate their commonalities whilst still getting their different physical and mental health needs met?

Could I politely make the request again that the term "cis" is not used. "Woman" and "transwoman" is perfectly clear.