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Church of England -why aren't you asking 'What is a Man?'

(203 Posts)
FarNorth Mon 11-Jul-22 10:59:42

The Church of England now doesn't know what a woman is, despite successfully managing to discriminate against women for centuries.

Perhaps their minds would focus better if they considered 'What is a man?'

archive.ph/2022.07.10-194812/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/10/church-england-no-official-definition-woman/

AGAA4 Mon 11-Jul-22 17:32:35

My parents' generation and those before would be totally bemused by the question What is a woman? To them it would be glaringly obvious

There have always been transwomen getting quietly on with their lives and most not wanting all this publicity.
This has gone beyond ridiculous now.

VioletSky Mon 11-Jul-22 17:27:54

How many is enough?

www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment

www.teenvogue.com/story/woman-mistaken-transgender-bathroom-attack

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787

www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2017/08/21/25364977/savage-love-letter-of-the-day-cis-woman-mistaken-for-trans

www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/06/cancer-survivor-hits-out-at-bathroom-bill-after-she-is-mistaken-for-trans-woman/

The lady who had cancer and a double mastectomy was deeply upsetting to me.

Is that enough? I could find more but these are ones I remembered.

Chewbacca Mon 11-Jul-22 17:20:53

I saw this sad tale, about a 16 year old girl who has very severe disabilities, over on Mumsnet:

Our severely learning-disabled sixteen year-old daughter, Helen (not her real name), is entirely dependent on others for intimate care. Nearly two years ago, her special school sent round a new intimate care policy, which had been ratified by its governing body:

“A decision has been made to remove cross-gender consent from the personal and intimate care policy, which is in line with legislation and guidance relating to equality and diversity”.

In other words, same-sex intimate care had now become cross-gender intimate care, a change of policy that would allow male members of staff to take Helen to the loo, one-to-one, behind a closed door. As her parents, our reaction was initially disbelief, followed by outrage, and a determination that this policy change should be reversed. Life as parents of a severely learning-disabled, autistic and non-verbal daughter certainly has its worries, and some of these are the focus of this blog. But there is a danger, in writing at length about our worries and fears for Helen’s present and future, that we leave readers thinking our experience is one of unending woe, for which we are seeking sympathy.

The parents full statement is here: www.transgendertrend.com/severely-learning-disabled-girl-sex-based-rights-under-threat/

I'd be interested in hearing how any parent/grandparent, particularly if they have a severely disabled daughter/grandaughter, feels about this.

Chewbacca Mon 11-Jul-22 17:13:06

Bit tricky for us atheists. And anyone with an O level in biology! grin

Chestnut Mon 11-Jul-22 17:11:39

VioletSky

We had an entire thread about it and no one could define a women...

Except of course by their genitals which sometimes means no trans women and sometimes means only post op transwomen...

I wouldn't want to be defined by my genitals personally. Especially as we don't go around flashing them. What's in my pants is no-one else's business.

What is inside someone's pants is very much the issue. If there is a penis there then I don't want them sharing female changing rooms, toilets or taking my granddaughter on Brownie pack holidays. I'm sure women's abuse groups don't want them in the room either, when they are scared of men and trying to escape from them.

Galaxy Mon 11-Jul-22 17:10:25

Yes I count it a blessing of my life VS grin.
Yes I have heard the soul thing before. Bit tricky for us atheists.

Chewbacca Mon 11-Jul-22 17:10:19

There are also many tales of cis women being attacked as trans

Really? I've not heard anything of that, could you provide the relevant link so we can read up on that please.

VioletSky Mon 11-Jul-22 17:08:28

To be fair * Galaxy*, far too many people have indeed seen that man's genitals and probably needed the therapy for it

Chewbacca Mon 11-Jul-22 17:07:13

Crikey the obsession with genitals. Let's pretend that no one can tell what sex people are except be looking at their genitals. No thanks.

Indeed Galaxy; I've actually been informed today that "we need to learn to look beyond their genitals and see what's in their soul". Between trying to look past the genitals, Adam's apple, 5 o'clock shadow and body muscle mass, I've seen all the evidence I need that they're a bloke.

Galaxy Mon 11-Jul-22 17:03:25

Boris Johnson is a man. I thank the lord have never seen his genitals. Look how easy it is.

VioletSky Mon 11-Jul-22 17:01:35

I don't know how you can be so confident Galaxy

If 1٪ of the population is trans.... How could you know for sure?

I've never looked at anyone and thought anything...

There are also many tales of cis women being attacked as trans when they weren't and also stories of people peering at genitals through gaps in toilet doors so I am guessing not everyone is as sure as you

Galaxy Mon 11-Jul-22 16:56:33

Crikey the obsession with genitals. Let's pretend that no one can tell what sex people are except be looking at their genitals. No thanks.

Galaxy Mon 11-Jul-22 16:53:39

I feel a tiny bit sorry for them, they were seen as out of touch on gay rights and womens rights, and are trying to do the right thing, unfortunately I think they will end up being on the 'wrong side of history' again.

VioletSky Mon 11-Jul-22 16:52:41

We had an entire thread about it and no one could define a women...

Except of course by their genitals which sometimes means no trans women and sometimes means only post op transwomen...

I wouldn't want to be defined by my genitals personally. Especially as we don't go around flashing them. What's in my pants is no-one else's business.

Prentice Mon 11-Jul-22 16:50:09

I do feel bemused by the whole topic and will only say that all the men in my social orbit know very well what a woman is.
The Church Of England is just one organisation among many who don’t know how to treat this subject and are worried to be considered old fashioned.

FarNorth Mon 11-Jul-22 16:38:50

There has been campaigning for many years as documented, by those involved, in the book 'Trans Britain - Our Journey from the Shadows".
They had made progress by getting the Gender Recognition Act 2004 brought in. Although the effect of the Act was actually to enable the changing of the sex designation on birth certificates, the word 'gender' was deliberately used to introduce confusion.
A key person, in that, was transman & lawyer Stephen Whittle.

As Doodledog said, the whole thing has taken off, and captured public institutions & businesses, since Stonewall started their 'trainings' and misrepresentation of Equalities Law.

Chestnut Mon 11-Jul-22 15:29:50

The problem is that no-one even 20 years ago ever thought it was necessary to ask' what is a woman?' as stated by Ricky Gervais ?

Chestnut Mon 11-Jul-22 15:12:22

FarNorth that is the correct answer but everyone is scared to say it! My Oxford Dictionery (from the 1980s) defines a woman as an adult female person but I'd say adult female human or adult human female is probably clearer.

Doodledog Mon 11-Jul-22 15:09:26

Yes, it's madness.

And I don't understand* why there has been a sudden rush to claim that the situation is nuanced. It couldn't be simpler. We have all known what a man is and what a woman is for millennia.

*Well, that's not strictly true. As I understand it that the 'confusion' has arisen since Stonewall got involved, and muddied the waters between sex, sexual orientation, sexuality and so-called 'gender'.

Biscuitmuncher Mon 11-Jul-22 15:02:15

It's all absolute madness. Seems now if a man is slightly feminine hes got to be "fixed" by turning him into a woman

FarNorth Mon 11-Jul-22 14:55:32

What is wrong with the definitions of Adult Female Human & Adult Male Human?

Why are so many claiming that "it's complicated"?

What are 'sex' and 'gender' geekesse?

Doodledog Mon 11-Jul-22 14:16:38

I don't understand how asking 'what is a woman?' is considered passive aggressive by people who say that transpeople can be so sure that they are of the opposite sex that they 'become' them.

How can someone feel so strongly that they are something without knowing what that something is, and why is it passive aggressive to question that?

Smileless2012 Mon 11-Jul-22 14:16:14

I agree geekesse.

geekesse Mon 11-Jul-22 13:14:56

I’m not sure many big organisations have an official definition of what constitutes ‘a man’ or ‘a woman’ and discrimination has been a feature of most organisations and societies for centuries. Why single out the Church of England?

UK law defines clearly what is meant by ‘person’, and distinguishes between ‘sex’ and ‘gender’, but that’s as far as it goes.

sodapop Mon 11-Jul-22 12:58:04

Absolutely agree FarNorth