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Read it in The Irish Times

(132 Posts)
Mollygo Thu 21-Jul-22 11:49:45

Trans rights a question of reasonableness and common sense

There is no absolute human right to erase gendered thought and language on a widespread basis

Expand

I sense that there is a real danger for transgender people that ideological activism by a tiny minority may lose them the goodwill and empathy of the great majority.
Michael McDowell

I have nothing but complete empathy for any person who finds themselves having to confront a deep-seated conviction that their ostensible physical sex does not correspond with their gender. That self-understanding or conviction is not a matter of sexual orientation – conveniently divided by some into heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual. Orientation or attraction varies among people with gender dysphoria as much as it does with all other people.

Moreover, I also accept that many trans people endure a great deal of profoundly painful rejection and/or suspicion from those who neither understand nor empathise in any way with their situation. They naturally see such rejection as a form of discrimination and, moreover, an unjust discrimination that infringes their human rights.

And that is where things become complex. Current thinking favours elimination of all forms of discrimination on the ground that it necessarily involves inequality.

But that raises the question as to whether society or the Irish Constitution is bound by anti-discriminatory principles to regard everyone for all purposes simply as a human citizen with an innate human right to self-identify as male, female, fluid, transgender, or, indeed, non-gendered.

I incline to the view that for the vast majority of citizens, distinction based on ostensible physical sex is very important in many but not all aspects of our social existence. Sex cannot simply be wished away as a concept or as a social reality. The growth of women’s equality as a strong anti-discriminatory movement in the last hundred years demonstrates that distinction between ostensible physical sex is hugely important. While legal and economic inequality for women is being tackled with varying degrees of success, the demands from within the trans community for the large-scale dismantling of distinction based on ostensible physical sex is not necessarily a common cause with feminism.

Take, for instance, sport. In some, but not all, areas of competitive sport, women wish to compete separately from men. This is not a relic of outdated ideology but is based on an obvious truth – that men are physically more likely to win than women in sports like running, rugby, all kinds of football, swimming, wrestling, boxing and many others.

To require people with objectively male physiques to compete against other such people and people with objectively female physiques to compete with other such people is only fair if that is the way that the great majority of competitors want. Achieving such objective athletic fairness and justice, I think, trumps any sense of injustice that a person born with a male body and identifying as a woman may feel if excluded from competing in an all-women’s event.

Does that mean that we prohibit gender self-identification for all purposes? I don’t think so. If a person I previously assumed was male tells me that he wants to be dealt with as she or her, perhaps good manners and empathy requires me to do that. Those who wish to signal their preferred mode of address should be free to do so.

But it does not, in my opinion, mean that we all must adopt gender-neutral language such as “chest-feeding”, “men with wombs”, “people who menstruate” and the like, in order to spare the feelings of some of those with gender dysphoria.

In the end it is a question of reasonableness and common sense. I think that the great majority of people would happily legislate to ensure that identity documents can easily be changed to accommodate the genuine wishes of people with dysphoria. By the same token, many people may not want to end gender-based changing rooms and bathroom facilities in all cases or to legally require further such facilities for transgender people.

For the great, great majority, gender-based language, thought, concepts and social convention are really part of what we are – just as central to our personalities as the identity-convictions of trans people are to them. It isn’t a question of thoughtlessness.

That trans people experience rejection as a consequence of our civilisation’s social recognition and distinctions of sex and gender does not confer on them an absolute human right to erase gendered thought and language on a widespread basis.

While anyone can cite statistics, studies tend to suggest that adult dysphoria is very rare, and much rarer in people born women than men.

I sense that there is a real danger for transgender people that ideological activism by a tiny minority may lose them the goodwill and empathy of the great majority. That would be a pity.

Michael McDowell is a barrister and a former minister for justice

Chewbacca Sat 23-Jul-22 00:45:03

trans and cis are currently the ones in use

Only by TRAs. Women really do find it offensive Gagajo and have been saying so for a very long time.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Jul-22 00:44:56

But things kept getting nasty and I tried to point it out. that's quite the accusation!!! Please link to where this has happened. Otherwise retract this slur.

Are you happy for terms such as trans identified male to be used instead of the kinder (but less accurate) transwoman?

One success is that a trial in 3 Australian hospitals where the mother had to tick a box "birthing parent" is being immediately cancelled, and 'mother' reinstated. Common sense and accuracy prevail. The other box didn't say "sperm provider" grin

GagaJo Sat 23-Jul-22 00:41:54

Rosie51

Well the easy, simple, kind, but accurate way to differentiate is women and transwomen. If 100% accuracy and honesty is required then it's trans identified males, but I understand transwomen don't like that , so I don't use it. I don't think that makes me dishonest, just considerate of other people's feelings.

We could just agree on women.

But if the GC require an adjective, trans and cis are currently the ones in use.

GagaJo Sat 23-Jul-22 00:41:01

Doodledog

posted too soon, sorry.

I am gender critical, not critical of transpeople. I do not believe that anyone can know they are in the wrong gender, as I do not believe that 'gender' is a concrete or tangible thing. It is a set of socially constructed behaviours that change over tome and place. I have no objection to transpeople living their best lives and wish them well. I do, however, object to the mailing of the language where it comes to adult human females, and to the erosion of women's rights in order to allow transwomen to believe that they are women. They are not. Neither are men, and I have nothing against them either.

I am so sick of saying that and not being listened to.

But if you know you are in the right gender, then the opposite must be possible for some. It is logical.

Some match. Some don't.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Jul-22 00:36:27

The Irish Times article is one of the most balanced and objective articles I've read in a long, long time. Here's a link to the full article if you'd like to read it:

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/20/trans-rights-a-question-of-reasonableness-and-common-sense/

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 00:34:24

I have no idea where to start with that.

I will refrain from pointing out the very obvious digs in your post, and continue to be my usual polite and reasonable self grin.

That was my own attempt at passive aggression - how did I do?

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 00:30:50

The thing is that I have spent a great deal of time trying to have a polite and reasonable discussion and find a way to connect with people and talk with respect as equals who all have a voice.

But things kept getting nasty and I tried to point it out.

Maybe people just like an argument vut I don't, if that's seen as a flounce well, that's OK.

So I shall stop flouncing then.

I will still be my normal polite and reasonable self. I will even avoid a silly word that doesn't detract from individual women at all.

But it won't come from a place of trying to feel heard and welcome in discussion. It will come from a place where I simply believe that opposing views need to be expressed, for others reading, not in the hope that things on these many many threads can ever become healthy discussion.

Simply, you can all speak for yourselves and how that is perceived won't be my problem.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Jul-22 00:30:31

The term cis is offensive. you guys makes me cringe.

FarNorth Sat 23-Jul-22 00:28:36

GagaJo when I said transwomen should be able to...etc, I meant that it should be possible in our advanced, enlightened society, not that I am instructing transwomen on what to do.

Exactly, Rosie51, women and transwomen - perfectly clear.

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 00:26:39

mangling, not mailing! The post gremlins are out in force tonight.

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 00:26:03

posted too soon, sorry.

I am gender critical, not critical of transpeople. I do not believe that anyone can know they are in the wrong gender, as I do not believe that 'gender' is a concrete or tangible thing. It is a set of socially constructed behaviours that change over tome and place. I have no objection to transpeople living their best lives and wish them well. I do, however, object to the mailing of the language where it comes to adult human females, and to the erosion of women's rights in order to allow transwomen to believe that they are women. They are not. Neither are men, and I have nothing against them either.

I am so sick of saying that and not being listened to.

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 00:20:37

‘So it's gaslighting to use a term someone else may find offensive.’

Read the posts, GagaJo. It is gaslighting to blame someone for speaking out against something. It is not gaslighting to use a term someone finds offensive - that is simply rude. It is on the same lines as 'look what you made me do', or 'I am walking away because you have upset me by objecting to my behaviour'. If you are going to criticise someone's use of a term it would be a good idea to find out what it means.

It is hypocritical to argue that the GC have the right to express themselves in the manner that they wish, denigrating trans people and telling what they should do and that how they feel doesn’t make sense while at the same time instructing others not to express themselves for fear of offending the GC.
If you can point to anywhere when I have denigrated transpeople or told [them] what they should do, I would be very surprised.

FarNorth Sat 23-Jul-22 00:15:53

icanhandthemback

Just wondering who started using the word "cis" to mean "this side." Was it women?

grin
Of course not.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Jul-22 00:15:16

Well the easy, simple, kind, but accurate way to differentiate is women and transwomen. If 100% accuracy and honesty is required then it's trans identified males, but I understand transwomen don't like that , so I don't use it. I don't think that makes me dishonest, just considerate of other people's feelings.

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 00:14:19

I can handle a lot more than that, VS; but I resent being deliberately and provocatively called by a term that not only have I said I find offensive but have explained repeatedly why that is the case, had my posts trampled on and then gaslighted when I object.

If you can point out where I have been rude, childish or personal, however, I will be happy to apologise.

GagaJo Sat 23-Jul-22 00:14:13

Back to the old, ‘do as I say, not as I do’ on the trans boards.

‘So it's gaslighting to use a term someone else may find offensive.’

But it is OK for the gender critical to make statements such as:
Transwomen ‘should be able to own the reality of being male people who do not fit the boring old stereotypes.’

And also that ‘doing something which identifies them as undeniably female, doesn’t make sense.’ It matters not at all that things that trans people do doesn’t make sense to cis people. We aren’t the ones experiencing gender dysphoria.

It is hypocritical to argue that the GC have the right to express themselves in the manner that they wish, denigrating trans people and telling what they should do and that how they feel doesn’t make sense while at the same time instructing others not to express themselves for fear of offending the GC.

It needs to be one set of rules if it is going to work. Either respect is shown to all, or it is a free for all.

Or the echo chamber. Where all the comments are one sided and just pat each other on the back.

VioletSky Fri 22-Jul-22 23:53:52

OK well, a different thing I could do is ignore all the behaviour I don't agree with, be very polite and very kind and in my view be a tiny bit patronising by avoiding "cis" because apparently you guys can't handle a simple way to differentiate...

And highlight the issues on these threads that way.

Because you are only really damaging your own arguments

I'm always honest

Let's do that

VioletSky Fri 22-Jul-22 23:48:20

See

Rosie51 Fri 22-Jul-22 23:44:25

VS So knowing many on here find 'cis' offensive you continue to use it, despite there being other terminology you could use..... seems a deliberate intention to offend. Nobody is going to report you, we're not TRA/MRA snowflakes grin

Oh a flounce is a flounce, especially when done to avoid answering questions, that if answered, would weaken one's arguments.

I care about the opinions of people whose opinion I respect. Some I've met in real life, some only on the internet. Like is very different from respect I've often found.

VioletSky Fri 22-Jul-22 23:33:32

If cis is offensive, report me it will be removed

Other than that, I have to be completely honest, I don't respect people who can't understand that my using cis is aligned with my pro trans views and makes sense in that context.

You only find it offensive because of your views... this not the same thing

You can call it a flounce, I call it being not interested in what, despite my attempts otherwise, results again and again in a rude, personal, childish discussion because people feel being anything is reasonable in the pursuit of being right.

I occasionally commet to highlight that fact.

But there is no sensible discussion to be had here.

I believe these discussions matter but obviously not here because you just want to trample other views and that is exactly why we need an equality act.

I only care what people I like think about me anyway

toscalily Fri 22-Jul-22 23:24:39

A sensible well written article.

VioletSky Yet again you derail a serious discussion to push your point of view, yet again you use the word cis when many of us have told we find it offensive and yet again you flounce off.

Chewbacca Fri 22-Jul-22 22:23:09

All they now want to do is live their life in peacefully and quietly and many, many times they have said that the continual "shouting" by the few had led to exclusion, anger and distrust by the many.

And this is exactly what the majority of us on these discussions have been saying for a very long time. They've been unwillingly propelled into an unwelcome spotlight.

Doodledog your post @ 21.37 is spot on, particularly your 2nd paragraph. The response is as expected.

Mollygo Fri 22-Jul-22 22:12:17

Because I have heard gay men say they wish they could...
Quite probably and they are have happily been able to find ways to raise a family within the limitations of what is possible.

Because if they use a surrogate, only one gets to be a biological parent.
That’s true of any surrogacy, unless neither partner is involved in the fertilisation if the egg-which does happen.

Because if a trans man is in a relationship with a man, they could both be biological parents this way.
If a transman is in a relationship with a man, that’s really a heterosexual relationship-so of course they could both be parents as one is male and one is female and the one who is female surrenders their desire to be a man for the fertilisation, pregnancy and birth of the child because only females give birth. The transman can continue to “feel like a man” or “wish to be” a man, throughout, but for the period of pregnancy, the TM unarguably demonstrates being female.

Which leads to the fact that surrogacy is out of reach financially for some.
Surrogacy is out of reach financially for many heterosexual couples too, so your point is?

But I understand if you can't consider another's point of view or wish if it might provide understanding towards a trans person.
You are making false presumptions about and claiming inaccurate understanding about what I think, but that’s what I have come to expect from you so . . .
What I suggest is you read and reread Doodledog’s post above which is actually a more accurate representation of what I think.

Doodledog Fri 22-Jul-22 22:06:55

You didn't respond to my post anyway, VS. You ignored the comparison with race, and dismissed the concern about terminology by saying it might have been a mistake.

Of course it wouldn't be necessary for women to use the term, but if it becomes standard English the meaning of 'women' will be altered completely, and it will become the usual term over time. Trans women are women and women are 'cis'. Over my dead body.

VioletSky Fri 22-Jul-22 21:50:25

If I spent all my time pointing out what I find offensive in these discussions I wouldn't have time for anything else

Not a productive use of my time and would minimise and ignore the rest of what people have to say which is rude

I will leave you all too it