ABC Pride book from Dorling Kindersley, for young children

FarNorth

^You can't stop even a 12 year old from breast binding, if that is what they want.^

You don't have to claim it's a normal thing to do and that the girl doing it is actually a boy called Gerald who must be referred to as 'he'.

You are making 2 different points.

1) Who would tell a child that binding was normal?

2) If a child wants to be referred to as Gerald and to use a male pronoun, we should respect that. If you refuse to do that, you risk alienating that child from you and you will then have zero influence over them and might as well be pushing them into the hands of extremists.

It won't have all come under the guise of 'gender' though DD. It will be safe guarding training. Of which 'gender' will have been covered. Other things that will be covered will be issues such as forced marriage, FGM, county lines etc.

You can't have it both ways. You either want staff to be trained in how to deal with it or you want them to operate without guidance. The latter is more dangerous.

Who recommended it? I read the trans threads and have seen no one recommending it.

Certainly when we had the thread about Lush being a collection centre so binders could be collected and concealed from parents, there were some who didn't think that was wrong, let alone akin to child abuse. Breast binding is never a safe healthy option, but some insisted it could be. Deliberately enabling a child to practise an unsafe practice is in my opinion equivalent to recommending.

That's not what the Cass report is saying about social transition.

Sorry that was in reference to the pronoun thing, I think I will wait and see the recommendations of the Cass report before I decide what is the best option.

Rosie51

^Who recommended it? I read the trans threads and have seen no one recommending it.^

Certainly when we had the thread about Lush being a collection centre so binders could be collected and concealed from parents, there were some who didn't think that was wrong, let alone akin to child abuse. Breast binding is never a safe healthy option, but some insisted it could be. Deliberately enabling a child to practise an unsafe practice is in my opinion equivalent to recommending.

That isn't recommending. Are you under the illusion that if Lush don't provide this service they won't get them?

We are talking about teenagers. A postal address can very easily be arranged, via a friend / relative. Parent would be completly in the dark. My mother didn't know half of what I was up to at 14 and at 16 she didn't have a clue.

GagaJo

It won't have all come under the guise of 'gender' though DD. It will be safe guarding training. Of which 'gender' will have been covered. Other things that will be covered will be issues such as forced marriage, FGM, county lines etc.

You can't have it both ways. You either want staff to be trained in how to deal with it or you want them to operate without guidance. The latter is more dangerous.

The first paragraph is fair enough. I have no issue with any of the things you mention being brought to the attention of teaching staff - they were part of staff development in my job, too - and it puts some of the earlier comments into context that wasn't there before. Not everyone works in schools, and/or is up to date with how things work, as (rightly) things have moved on since our own children were in the system. We can only take what is said on here at face value, and when it is inaccurate (or our interpretation of it is inaccurate) there is no way of knowing unless others who have more information correct it, as you have just done.

The second paragraph is different though. I never said or implied anything of the sort, and am fed up with having my words twisted.

DD-a perfect example!???

A quote DD.

What is the justification for spending so much on 'gender-related issues' in cash-strapped schools, though? Shouldn't schools be where children go to be educated, not to explore issues like 'gender', which many believe is a concept that was created by Stonewall in order to divert ££££ into their coffers?

Either you think children need supporting, or you don't. I'm not sure what you're arguing for now.

Got your pompoms out MG?

Sorry, that was in reference to your alphabet video -a perfect example of manipulation!
Twisting your words provides amusement and brain exercise for some. Perhaps that’s a reason to advocate, “be kind”.

Got your pompoms out MG?
Sorry GJ, can’t compete with yours!

Why anyone would think that 'gender issues' came about because of an organisation, when there are historical texts and texts across different cultures that show evidence of what we now call trans, beats me.

It's like saying homosexuality was invented.

Who am I cheerleading for?

As you know, I only participate in these threads if they are sensible and polite.

This one looks like it might be changing in tone. The other usual non GC participants have left, for that reason.

GagaJo

A quote DD.

What is the justification for spending so much on 'gender-related issues' in cash-strapped schools, though? Shouldn't schools be where children go to be educated, not to explore issues like 'gender', which many believe is a concept that was created by Stonewall in order to divert ££££ into their coffers?

Either you think children need supporting, or you don't. I'm not sure what you're arguing for now.

Got your pompoms out MG?

As I've just said, that comment was made in the light of earlier ones which implied that staff were on the lookout for signs that children were dissatisfied with their changing bodies and should be referred.

As you have put it into context (again, as I have just said) it makes more sense, so I am not 'arguing' for anything. I was asking for clarification, which has been given.

For the record, I don't think that transsexuality was invented by Stonewall - as you say, there have been people 'living as' the other sex for ages. I think that 'gender' as something that can be aspired to or rejected has been invented, and made into a lucrative industry. There is a huge difference, as I am sure you know.

GagaJo

Rosie51

Who recommended it? I read the trans threads and have seen no one recommending it.

Certainly when we had the thread about Lush being a collection centre so binders could be collected and concealed from parents, there were some who didn't think that was wrong, let alone akin to child abuse. Breast binding is never a safe healthy option, but some insisted it could be. Deliberately enabling a child to practise an unsafe practice is in my opinion equivalent to recommending.

That isn't recommending. Are you under the illusion that if Lush don't provide this service they won't get them?

We are talking about teenagers. A postal address can very easily be arranged, via a friend / relative. Parent would be completly in the dark. My mother didn't know half of what I was up to at 14 and at 16 she didn't have a clue.

Please don't insult my intelligence, of course I know that teenagers circumvent their parents. Knowing that happens doesn't make adults enabling to help them is right.
So we all know that some teenagers have drunk alcohol. They will use a myriad of ways to access it. Does that make it right for any adult or organisation to say we'll help you obtain the alcohol, your parents need never know?
Or many teenagers have skipped school. Should your friend's mum or the local hardware shop write a sick note for you so that your parents don't find out? You don't think that would encourage further absences?

GagaJo

Who am I cheerleading for?

As you know, I only participate in these threads if they are sensible and polite.

This one looks like it might be changing in tone. The other usual non GC participants have left, for that reason.

So asking about pom-poms (unless that’s your word for your female parts) is sensible and polite? I’d never have known if you hadn’t clarified that.

The other . . . ?

Yes, you're right MG. I shouldn't have sunk to that level. If I disagree with someone tone or attitude, I shouldn't lower myself that level. Apologies.

I think I'll leave the thread now its descending into bickering. It isn't of interest to me. This is a serious topic and deserves to be treated that way.

GagaJo

Yes, you're right MG. I shouldn't have sunk to that level. If I disagree with someone tone or attitude, I shouldn't lower myself that level. Apologies.

I think I'll leave the thread now its descending into bickering. It isn't of interest to me. This is a serious topic and deserves to be treated that way.

Do I not get any response to the situations I outlined and whether you think the adult actions would be appropriate?

Hang on a minute.

How is it 'bickering' when your comments are responded to, but not when you misrepresent what others have said, GG?

I have explained that some of your clarifications have been helpful - I am not bickering, and resent the implication that I have been. Leaving a thread when losing the argument has become an MO on these threads. That's fair enough if that's how you want it; but please stop insinuating (or declaring) that it's because 'the gender-critical' are behaving badly. It is not the case, and as a 'debating strategy' it's getting very tired.

I think I'll leave the thread now its descending into bickering. It isn't of interest to me. This is a serious topic and deserves to be treated that way.

So continue to treat it that way.

If a child wants to be referred to as Gerald and to use a male pronoun, we should respect that. If you refuse to do that, you risk alienating that child from you and you will then have zero influence over them and might as well be pushing them into the hands of extremists.

I would call the girl Gerald if that's what she wants since names are just made up things.
I would avoid saying 'she' if it would upset her and I'd say 'they', or avoid using a pronoun, rather than say 'he' for a female person - since pronouns do have meanings.

I would be happier with a pronoun for transpeople, so 'he' and 'she' for male and female, and a different one for transmen and women (or different ones - whichever they prefer). That way, 'they' would retain its plural meaning, or its occasional use to indicate that the sex of the person being discussed is not known.

Me too DD but in the meantime..

And me as well DD, but they haven’t been able to come up with anything they’d all agree on yet. In fact the girls you’ve heard me speak up before, came up with a list which changed by the week, making it impossible for anyone who wasn’t in the group to get it right.
But then, a trans school bully is a school bully, by another name.

I've posted this on the Labour Party thread too.
It's a video of a detransitioned 30 year old transman, Raven, speaking with TT Exulansic.

Raven says, among other things, that she now has pain from damage to her ribcage caused by using a binder for around 10 years.

odysee.com/@Exulansic:d/ravens-detransition-story-i-regret-my-top-surgery:7?r=CceWWJ3H1pQejCxqniuGfNHkUCpNTBCh