ABC Pride book from Dorling Kindersley, for young children

FarNorth

^I like that my boy knows not all boys grow up to be men. I love him knowing he can be what he wants to be. I'm pretty sure he's going to be full on masculine, but at this stage, the world's his oyster. He'd have painted nails if they weren't flaky, much to his grandad's horror. Sadly, we get shut down as we get older.^

All boys do grow up to be men, however they choose to present themselves.
By 'full on masculine' do you mean into football & cars & manly stuff, or what exactly?
Perhaps you should have a talk with grandad about rethinking his horror of painted nails. That's the sort of thing that children pick up on to let them know what is expected of them, based on their sex.

In your opinion FN. I know a couple of women that started out as boys.

I like that my boy knows not all boys grow up to be men. I love him knowing he can be what he wants to be. I'm pretty sure he's going to be full on masculine, but at this stage, the world's his oyster. He'd have painted nails if they weren't flaky, much to his grandad's horror. Sadly, we get shut down as we get older.

All boys do grow up to be men, however they choose to present themselves.
By 'full on masculine' do you mean into football & cars & manly stuff, or what exactly?
Perhaps you should have a talk with grandad about rethinking his horror of painted nails. That's the sort of thing that children pick up on to let them know what is expected of them, based on their sex.

Why would you need to? You'd just tell the child that he had to have an operation!

Sorry, I should have made clear that in the hypothetical situation the child has already known Cousin Joyce as a girl or woman.
I would not lie to the child that 'she' is now 'he'.

I would, indeed, explain in terms suitable to the child's age which would also, I'd hope, help the child to be polite to Cousin Joyce (now George) without believing things which are untrue.

Of course, if the child met Cousin George and knew nothing about Joyce there might be no need to explain anything but I also would avoid using pronouns for George.

The ABC book, however, rushes into telling young children a lot of things they don't need to know.

General interest. Not about a physical scar in front of them, on a person that they love.

I like that my boy knows not all boys grow up to be men. I love him knowing he can be what he wants to be. I'm pretty sure he's going to be full on masculine, but at this stage, the world's his oyster. He'd have painted nails if they weren't flaky, much to his grandad's horror. Sadly, we get shut down as we get older.

We over analyse this stuff. Children are just trying to put the world into a recognisable shape. If someone needed an operation to make them better, they don't need trans theory, they just want to know their uncle is OK now and that the scars don't hurt anymore.

True, and sometimes that will keep them satisfied for years. My grandmother used to use the excuse that she had 'a bone in her leg' to get out of doing anything she could send a child to do for her, and I felt sorry for her till I was about 14 and finally the penny dropped .

That does make me wonder what the point of the book is though.

GagaJo

In my experience of young children (under 6, say), they are happy with a basic but logical explanation. DGS can and does ask 'Why?' all day long, but would be, and is, happy with simple explanations before moving on to insects, animals or fictional stuff.

We over analyse this stuff. Children are just trying to put the world into a recognisable shape. If someone needed an operation to make them better, they don't need trans theory, they just want to know their uncle is OK now and that the scars don't hurt anymore.

Perfectly put!

Please let young children grow up just having fun, messing about in the garden, playing with friends, reading fun, interesting, colourful books. They’ve got years ahead of them to learn about life.

I bet the story of the ginger bread man is on the ‘danger list’ !

In my experience of young children (under 6, say), they are happy with a basic but logical explanation. DGS can and does ask 'Why?' all day long, but would be, and is, happy with simple explanations before moving on to insects, animals or fictional stuff.

We over analyse this stuff. Children are just trying to put the world into a recognisable shape. If someone needed an operation to make them better, they don't need trans theory, they just want to know their uncle is OK now and that the scars don't hurt anymore.

I agree that a small child could be told that Uncle Joe had an operation, but if Uncle Joe makes a habit of walking about with no top on, the child is likely to probe deeper. There are ways of answering, but it is difficult to think of any that aren't indicative of one's stance on so-called 'gender'.

I might say 'Uncle Joe used to have breasts like Mummy's, but had them cut off', which would lead to more 'why?' questions that would be more and more difficult to answer neutrally. 'Because he was born a woman and wanted to be more like a man' is maybe the best I could do (although I haven't given it as much thought as I would if this were not a hypothetical situation). I know that this response wouldn't satisfy everyone, but I couldn't say 'he used to be a woman but had an operation to make him into a man' because I would consider that to be lying to a child about something that I don't consider to be a 'white lie' such as Santa or the tooth fairy.

Jeez. My typing/grammar! Sorry.

*if you're calling someone that clearly appears to be a man...

Fit your explanations to the age of the child.

And if you're calling someone that clearly looks like a man as she, you're going to confuse the child a lot more than is necessary, which is unkind to the child and to your cousin.

If you're not comfortable with someone else's choices, keep your explanations neutral at the very minimum.

Why would you need to? You'd just tell the child that he had to have an operation!

My GS asks about my scars (mastectomy and reconstructions, scars all over) and I just say I had an operation but I'm OK now.

I'd find it very difficult to explain to a child that Cousin Joyce's mastectomy scars were necessary in order for 'him' to 'be a man'.

I'd have no trouble explaining if Cousin Joyce had had a mastectomy because of illness.

To me, the difference is that Cousin Joyce does not become a man in the first example but can be cured of an illness in the second example.

Sorry icanhandthemback maybe you didn't mean to answer my question and were just commenting.

Thank you icanhandthemback however I wasn't asking about what one would say to children but how one would be able to see clearly that a child is trans.

It is sometimes very clear in primary aged children.

I would think that it is most likely to be clear in older primary aged children which goes up to the age of 11. I suspect the age range this book is aimed at will not have concrete thoughts about it beyond the normal behaviours of children who have not yet grasped the concept of gender or who can give birth to babies.
Surely the most important thing about information for young children it is done to the right level for the children you are giving it to. You wouldn't start talking pure maths to a child who was trying to get their head round number bonds to 10. Similarly, you wouldn't go deeply into gender issues with a child who is trying to get their head around the differences in the bodies of the people they see around them.

Glorianny

I'm off this thread I find the manipulative questioning and the condescension too hard to take,

If you see that, you could ignore it and take the opportunity to state your viewpoint clearly, bearing in mind that some may be reading without commenting.

Where is the manipulative questioning?

I think it is very important that people are able to differentiate between reliable and unreliable data. We can't all be experts on everything, so we should be able to do what Rosie has done and look at the sources of the information, the sampling (methodology as well as size), the terminology used, and whether it is peer reviewed before deciding whether it is reliable or not. That is not manipulative. Selective quoting from unreliable data (deliberately or inadvertently) can and does manipulate people - ask a politician .

I would like to ask a straightforward question as someone whose only experience of children is when I had my own, and when I was a child myself. If a child is embarrassed by (for example) budding breasts and comments on it, would that automatically be taken as a sign of so-called 'gender' confusion, or would it be seen in the same way as someone commenting that she hates her knobbly knees, or her sticky-out ears? Basically I am asking 'at what point would an adult step in and refer her, and to whom would a child who'd commented on her ears or knees be referred?'

VS said It is sometimes very clear in primary aged children.

In what ways might it be clear - as opposed to a child who simply enjoys non-stereotypical interests etc?

This is intended as a simple request for information and I hope it comes across in that way.

Glorianny

I'm off this thread I find the manipulative questioning and the condescension too hard to take,

I know the feeling!

VioletSky

Rosie51 gotta start somewhere right?

What by claiming fact based on a woolly 'might or may'? By all means say there are people trying to discern if there are any physical signs that are only found in people who identify as transgender, but to state it as Trans people are born trans according to the scientific data we have so far (which I posted early in the thread) is somewhat misleading and overstating at the very least.

Genuinely not sure where I have assumed anything or accused anyone of assuming anything?

Think I will make a move too as I prefer honest discussion.

See you guys for a fresh start on the next thread

I'm off this thread I find the manipulative questioning and the condescension too hard to take,

Mollygo

Oh dear VS. I didn’t assume anything, though it seems you are assuming I did.
Knowing not to use what you think/your stance, is a part of not asking leading questions that comes into all safeguarding training and that also applies to listening to children who, for whatever reason puberty, early body development or potential gender dysphoria, are unhappy with their bodies.
That’s my job (in addition to teaching).

Sorry, I don't know what you mean?

Rosie51 gotta start somewhere right?