JK Rowling putting her money where her mouth is

I'm not denying anything Doodledog. I am questioning the assertion that there always need to be separate services for transwomen and natal women, because some women are happy to have them included.
Might there also be women who want a woman only service possibly. But I don't think all the posts on these threads about transwomen being men and indeed men who want to rape women help anyone.
And those 23 women are entitled to have their voices heard. Even if it totally contradicts your assertions. Why will you not listen to them?

Of course the 23 are entitled to their views, as you are yours and I am mine. They are, however, not a representative sample, simply on grounds of numbers and that they have all experienced care from the same provider. If a survey of a significantly greater sample from a representative range of providers could be carried out it would be worth more, but the fact would remain that there are women for whom having male bodied people listening to their stories is distressing - why would you not listen to them?

Doodledog

Glorianny

I've posted this before. Yes it is a small study, but its findings are just as relevant as all the fear mongering and anti-trans posts on these threads. The inclusion of transwomen in women's services and refuges is not a problem for the majority of women using those services in the NE. So why do some posters keep insisting it will be? Don't they want to listen to the women using those services? Could it be that abused transwomen and abused natal women have more in common with each other than they have with anyone posting on these threads? And isn't that what intersectional feminism says?
www.ncl.ac.uk/mediav8/gps/files/One%20of%20the%20Lasses%20Report.pdf

When you say it's a small study, you are talking about 23 service users. It is disingenuous to ask 'do 'some people' not want to listen to the women using these services?' based on that, as I'm sure you know.

I'm also sure that transwomen and women will share commonalities (with one another and with anyone posting on these threads - do you think we are all some sort of separate species?), but that's not the point. The point of this thread is not all the things shared by all humans, but the feelings of women who have been raped by men, which you seem to be either denying or trying to 'reframe' to suit your narrative.

I'm not denying anything Doodledog. I am questioning the assertion that there always need to be separate services for transwomen and natal women, because some women are happy to have them included.
Might there also be women who want a woman only service possibly. But I don't think all the posts on these threads about transwomen being men and indeed men who want to rape women help anyone.
And those 23 women are entitled to have their voices heard. Even if it totally contradicts your assertions. Why will you not listen to them?

Glorianny

I've posted this before. Yes it is a small study, but its findings are just as relevant as all the fear mongering and anti-trans posts on these threads. The inclusion of transwomen in women's services and refuges is not a problem for the majority of women using those services in the NE. So why do some posters keep insisting it will be? Don't they want to listen to the women using those services? Could it be that abused transwomen and abused natal women have more in common with each other than they have with anyone posting on these threads? And isn't that what intersectional feminism says?
www.ncl.ac.uk/mediav8/gps/files/One%20of%20the%20Lasses%20Report.pdf

When you say it's a small study, you are talking about 23 service users. It is disingenuous to ask 'do 'some people' not want to listen to the women using these services?' based on that, as I'm sure you know.

I'm also sure that transwomen and women will share commonalities (with one another and with anyone posting on these threads - do you think we are all some sort of separate species?), but that's not the point. The point of this thread is not all the things shared by all humans, but the feelings of women who have been raped by men, which you seem to be either denying or trying to 'reframe' to suit your narrative.

Wyllow3

"I agree with you about the resourcing of appropriate care which seems to be endemic throughout the whole health, welfare and social care system."

It saddens me as an old 70's feminist how bitter the rift has become.

Back at Women's Liberation conferences then we did have a small number of transwomen but they had transitioned before they came. We also wanted to change the way men and women are together in the world! Men not being brought up to regard aggression against women as part of what was natural...

I truly believe resources make a huge difference. It leads to a "Divide and Rule" in not just trans issues but a great deal of other situations in our daily lives where conflict reigns.

I think most of us share that position .

Doodledog

Dickens, I agree that (whereas provision should, of course, be made for minorities) their needs should not drive policy for the majority, where those needs clash with majority needs. This, as I see it, is an example of one of those many clashes. However, the figures in your link are about sexual orientation, not so-called 'gender' identity, which is very different. AFAIK there is no official record of the numbers of transgender people - up to a point I can see why, as it could be used against them - but it makes conversations like this one difficult, and I firmly believe that that is deliberate. Women also get buried in statistics that also include transwomen.

Yup - that's all I could find (there are unofficial "guestimates" but I prefer factual figures) and you are right, there are no official records on the number of transgender people. I think I found a government site which said these figures were not recorded, or known, but can't remember which site it was. The ONS data was the nearest I could get to some sort of clarification.

Women also get buried in statistics that also include transwomen.

We have been subsumed, well and truly incorporated.

I've posted this before. Yes it is a small study, but its findings are just as relevant as all the fear mongering and anti-trans posts on these threads. The inclusion of transwomen in women's services and refuges is not a problem for the majority of women using those services in the NE. So why do some posters keep insisting it will be? Don't they want to listen to the women using those services? Could it be that abused transwomen and abused natal women have more in common with each other than they have with anyone posting on these threads? And isn't that what intersectional feminism says?
www.ncl.ac.uk/mediav8/gps/files/One%20of%20the%20Lasses%20Report.pdf

"I agree with you about the resourcing of appropriate care which seems to be endemic throughout the whole health, welfare and social care system."

It saddens me as an old 70's feminist how bitter the rift has become.

Back at Women's Liberation conferences then we did have a small number of transwomen but they had transitioned before they came. We also wanted to change the way men and women are together in the world! Men not being brought up to regard aggression against women as part of what was natural...

I truly believe resources make a huge difference. It leads to a "Divide and Rule" in not just trans issues but a great deal of other situations in our daily lives where conflict reigns.

Wyllow3

are for the most part quite different to the experiences of the heterosexual majority. Their trials and obstacles are not ours, our focus is quite different."

Really? Most human concerns are shared by most of us. Our focuses are, in the main, not so different - family, work, relationships, social activities, crime and so on. We've got so many threads in GN about abuse, and the similarities are far greater than the differences.
Problem here is, we are talking about a range of abuse. I agree its not appropriate for a trans woman to join a group of actual female rape victims, but that's assuming care is only offered in groups not 1 2 1. i'm presuming that men who have been raped may prefer a group that reflects their experiences too.

I agree its most problematic in centres where people flee for in house care, or prisons: I'm of the opinion its an "adequate resourcing" matter. We probably wouldn't be having half the debates we do, if there were adequate resourcing on a whole number of facets of this discussion, which allows people to access appropriate care.

Really? Most human concerns are shared by most of us. Our focuses are, in the main, not so different - family, work, relationships, social activities, crime and so on. We've got so many threads in GN about abuse, and the similarities are far greater than the differences.

Yes, really.

I don't deny that as human beings we will naturally share at some points the same concerns and similarities, that's academic.

I agree with you about the resourcing of appropriate care which seems to be endemic throughout the whole health, welfare and social care system.

The first paragraph of my post of 9.27 was to Wyllow.

Lathyrus

I wish some intersectional feminist would complete this sentence

We believe that females should be prevented from accessing the support facilities they need because………..

Here's another one:
Although intersectionality is about how multiple identities interact to create unique patterns of oppression, and although women are already discriminated against in terms of pay, opportunities and gendered norms (some of which preclude mixing with men in particular circumstances), and are far more likely to be raped than men, instead of making their needs a priority, we forward those of male-bodied people because. . . . .

I totally agree with your last paragraph. 100%.

But can't you see that what we do have is a situation where women, who are by far the majority of rape sufferers, having had provision (thin on the ground as it may have been), largely as a result of campaigning and fundraising by women. Then men decide that they too want access, and disregard the wishes of the existing users. As ever, women are expected to move along, because 'what about the men?' Men could sort out their own provision, by doing the sort of campaigning and fundraising that women did. Funding is usually far more readily given to male causes than for those affecting women, so it is likely to be forthcoming, particularly as the threat of being deemed 'transphobic' hangs over public bodies thanks to Stonewall. Why is finding solutions for transwomen always a women's problem? I know transwomen think they are women, but they are not, and women are being gaslighted into going along with what is, at bottom, a fantasy.

Dickens, I agree that (whereas provision should, of course, be made for minorities) their needs should not drive policy for the majority, where those needs clash with majority needs. This, as I see it, is an example of one of those many clashes. However, the figures in your link are about sexual orientation, not so-called 'gender' identity, which is very different. AFAIK there is no official record of the numbers of transgender people - up to a point I can see why, as it could be used against them - but it makes conversations like this one difficult, and I firmly believe that that is deliberate. Women also get buried in statistics that also include transwomen.

And should that small number dictate to females how their life should be lived?

That is what is happening.

I think long waits or no waits as no resources all round makes a great deal of difference to how most people perceive the world. Bitterness and helplessness (all round, as regards resourcing) often gives rise to anger and demands that might otherwise not be made.

In every walk of life there will always be a small number determined to cause trouble and strife. We'll always disagree about some rights. Its thus in so many minority group issues as well as society generally..

I wish some intersectional feminist would complete this sentence

We believe that females should be prevented from accessing the support facilities they need because………..

Even if there was all the resourcing, the central point would be the right to choose the support that an individual needs.

We’ve seen over the past few days the extent to which the trans lobby object to women being able to choose support that meets their needs.

Even if there were female/male/ transwoman/trans man individual support facilities, a section of trans people would still insist their right to use the female/male.

are for the most part quite different to the experiences of the heterosexual majority. Their trials and obstacles are not ours, our focus is quite different."

Really? Most human concerns are shared by most of us. Our focuses are, in the main, not so different - family, work, relationships, social activities, crime and so on. We've got so many threads in GN about abuse, and the similarities are far greater than the differences.
Problem here is, we are talking about a range of abuse. I agree its not appropriate for a trans woman to join a group of actual female rape victims, but that's assuming care is only offered in groups not 1 2 1. i'm presuming that men who have been raped may prefer a group that reflects their experiences too.

I agree its most problematic in centres where people flee for in house care, or prisons: I'm of the opinion its an "adequate resourcing" matter. We probably wouldn't be having half the debates we do, if there were adequate resourcing on a whole number of facets of this discussion, which allows people to access appropriate care.

Wyllow3

In the case of physical rape yes am inclined to agree doodledog, tho not sure where that leaves cases of violent rape on transwomen by men, where are they supposed to go.

Are you actually saying that someone who’s been violently raped by a man, shouldn’t have to go to spaces where men are?

Gosh, that’s what we’ve been saying all along.

Doodledog

Wyllow3

In the case of physical rape yes am inclined to agree doodledog, tho not sure where that leaves cases of violent rape on transwomen by men, where are they supposed to go.

Do you have figures for how often that happens? I don't, and I'm going to bed in a minute, but I'd put a pound to a penny that they are minuscule, particularly if you are talking about surgically transitioned transwomen. Also, the fact that statistics are skewed by the fact that 'gender id' rather than sex is being used to record crime means there is no reliable data about these things, which is something that I find particularly worrying.

I did find this from the ONS. It is a response to what looks like a very comprehensive FOI request about rape stats, but there is 'insufficient data' to give figures on transpeople.

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/statisticsonvictimsandperpetratorsofrapeintheuk

I'm not at all suggesting that for those to whom it does happen it is not a hideous experience, but does it make sense to base policy on very small numbers? The problem is that if a male-bodied person joins a group therapy session it can ruin it for some of the women - it's not that (AFAIK) that people are objecting to one on one sessions. Maybe counselling could take place offsite?

I don't know, but the thing is (and I mean this respectfully) it is not my role to solve this sort of thing. There is always a 'but what would you do about it?' response to the difficult questions thrown up by the explosion in numbers of transpeople, and I am tired of trying to be a building services manager, a bar owner, a retail outlet policy maker, a hospital trust CEO and a rape crisis centre manager. I am qualified for none of those things. All I know is that when women's services are being taken away or diluted to make way for male bodied people it should be resisted, and men should be coming up with the answers and doing so before women are told to suck it up and move aside.

Excellent post Doodledog

I would add that, according to this ONS data (see link at the end) - though it is obviously not the most recent, which is not available - the transgender population would appear to be a minority.

Whilst most people accept that any minority group have rights - human rights, legal rights and 'cultural' rights - why are a small minority (my assumption) of a minority demographic dictating to the majority? And in this instance, to the point where even debating the issue is often deemed phobic, oppressive and insulting; culminating, sometimes, in people losing their jobs? Not because they have openly said something hateful but because they have questioned the assumptions of the minority and declared that natal / biological sex is immutable.

Is it melodramatic to think that this equates to "thought control"? You can hold those thoughts, but not be allowed to express them. Unless I am missing something, and I'm not being sarcastic here; sometimes facts or 'points' do leap-frog over my ageing grey matter and I miss the point spectacularly - this is what is happening. We, the majority, are being held to ransom by a minority (whose own groupthink appears to vary), we are not simply being asked to be "kind", we are being told what we must think and believe. And this is increasingly becoming enshrined in law.

My own POV is that the transgender community exists in its own right; that the challenges, physically, socially and culturally, that it faces (and I don't underestimate them) are for the most part quite different to the experiences of the heterosexual majority. Their trials and obstacles are not ours, our focus is quite different.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/bulletins/sexualidentityuk/2018

Or being told what they can and can't think.

Wyllow3

In the case of physical rape yes am inclined to agree doodledog, tho not sure where that leaves cases of violent rape on transwomen by men, where are they supposed to go.

Do you have figures for how often that happens? I don't, and I'm going to bed in a minute, but I'd put a pound to a penny that they are minuscule, particularly if you are talking about surgically transitioned transwomen. Also, the fact that statistics are skewed by the fact that 'gender id' rather than sex is being used to record crime means there is no reliable data about these things, which is something that I find particularly worrying.

I did find this from the ONS. It is a response to what looks like a very comprehensive FOI request about rape stats, but there is 'insufficient data' to give figures on transpeople.

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/statisticsonvictimsandperpetratorsofrapeintheuk

I'm not at all suggesting that for those to whom it does happen it is not a hideous experience, but does it make sense to base policy on very small numbers? The problem is that if a male-bodied person joins a group therapy session it can ruin it for some of the women - it's not that (AFAIK) that people are objecting to one on one sessions. Maybe counselling could take place offsite?

I don't know, but the thing is (and I mean this respectfully) it is not my role to solve this sort of thing. There is always a 'but what would you do about it?' response to the difficult questions thrown up by the explosion in numbers of transpeople, and I am tired of trying to be a building services manager, a bar owner, a retail outlet policy maker, a hospital trust CEO and a rape crisis centre manager. I am qualified for none of those things. All I know is that when women's services are being taken away or diluted to make way for male bodied people it should be resisted, and men should be coming up with the answers and doing so before women are told to suck it up and move aside.

I just don't feel I need labels or to be labeled. I treasure my human rights to my freedom of thoughts and have my own opinion and am able to respect other's right to think what they want. I am able to be friendly and professional with people who have different opinions, without trying to convince them that I am right.

My son, who I am estranged from was always trying to force his opinions on me and manipulate me, I found it controlling behaviour because when he found himself unable to affect change he cut me off. Violetsky you are suggesting we can't be friends because I don't think the same as you. That would be your choice, like it was my son's choice to punish me because I didn't "obey".

I agree it would be wrong.

As far as I am aware transmen are housed in the female estate because for them to be in male prison would be utterly wrong.

Wyllow3

In the case of physical rape yes am inclined to agree doodledog, tho not sure where that leaves cases of violent rape on transwomen by men, where are they supposed to go.

I think in that case, the only thing is to have all trans spaces to keep the trans people safe from men. In the case of the prison system this could be a good thing. They could then get specialised support and have a safe space of their own.

I am perfectly able to accept others differences and be friends with them, if they want to be friends and accept that we think different things.

After all, no one is a robot and we all want human rights to be able to be who we are.