JK Rowling putting her money where her mouth is

Finally was exactly what I meant. If I’ve missed all G’s posts supporting females without mentioning the needs of TIM, then please send references.
And from you to VS.
It would be good to hear you say females deserve spaces free from males without accusing others of being anti-trans, transphobic etc. etc. because they support females.
ALSO without mentioning that males, TIM or not also need support, which no one on here has denied.

Doodledog

Nobody is saying that all victims shouldn't be supported, though. The bone of contention is that they should be supported by female counsellors if that is what they ask for, with no accusations of 'bigotry', and no requirement that they should 'reframe their trauma'.

So how do assertions that transwomen are men help rape victims Doodledog? You are entirely welcome to your opinions but a woman who would have accessed rape counselling could be deterred from doing so by your accusations. Perhaps she would have been helped but will continue to suffer. Is that better?
As I said "reframing trauma" is an accepted concept of feminist counselling which aims to give women the tools to rebuild their confidence and help them move away from victimhood. It is always undertaken with the full consent of the subject. Why would you deny anyone that?

There is no "finally" about it, Glorianny has always said that

Why don't you guys go find some actual "trans activists" to shout at.

There aren't any here, only anti trans activists exist here being all rude, personal and shouty

Evidence for 1,2,3 not being true? Glorianny?

Rape counselling should be about the victim. If a woman feels more comfortable being counselled by another woman, then she should have the right to say so.

And the same goes for men. Who won't, necessarily, want to be given therapy by a woman.

Nobody is saying that all victims shouldn't be supported, though. The bone of contention is that they should be supported by female counsellors if that is what they ask for, with no accusations of 'bigotry', and no requirement that they should 'reframe their trauma'.

Mollygo

^And the "reframe your trauma" is a standard process in a lot of feminist rape counselling.^

Does that justify it being delivered to a traumatised female by a male with or without a frock?

Glorianny says,
I have no objection to a facility catering just for people who were born women

Thank heavens for that.
FINALLY your acceptance/agreement that females should have a place free from males when they need one. A huge step forward from you.

but continuing to misrepresent and vilify a service which has, and still does, offer support to women who have been raped and assaulted, is not acceptable

Vilified?. Misrepresented?

1. You mean a service that raped females might need to access is free from males and isn’t headed by a male after all?

2. Do you mean that male wasn’t responsible for the angst about the “reframe your trauma” quotation?

3. Do you mean that no male, frock or not, has ever or would ever use those words to a traumatised female?

If any or all of 1, 2, and 3 are true, it’s no wonder you use the words misrepresented and vilified.

Evidence for 1, 2, 3 not being true?

Just an acknowledgement that rape counselling services are a valuable but underfunded service which should offer help and support to all victims would be nice Mollygo.
Why you need to spread more fear to those victims I don't know.

And the "reframe your trauma" is a standard process in a lot of feminist rape counselling.

Does that justify it being delivered to a traumatised female by a male with or without a frock?

Glorianny says,
I have no objection to a facility catering just for people who were born women

Thank heavens for that.
FINALLY your acceptance/agreement that females should have a place free from males when they need one. A huge step forward from you.

but continuing to misrepresent and vilify a service which has, and still does, offer support to women who have been raped and assaulted, is not acceptable

Vilified?. Misrepresented?

1. You mean a service that raped females might need to access is free from males and isn’t headed by a male after all?

2. Do you mean that male wasn’t responsible for the angst about the “reframe your trauma” quotation?

3. Do you mean that no male, frock or not, has ever or would ever use those words to a traumatised female?

If any or all of 1, 2, and 3 are true, it’s no wonder you use the words misrepresented and vilified.

Evidence for 1, 2, 3 not being true?

Just watched the film, thank you for the link grannydarkhair. I cannot believe that many, if any, of the protestors have any idea what the film says. They will not have seen it, but 'just know it's transphobic blah blah blah' Anyone who has watched it should be able to dispute the content with facts, not speculation. They can't because it's truthful, accurate and well researched. When you can't give sensible, reasoned arguments against something then resort to banning it and stopping other people seeing it and having their eyes opened. That's always been the way of bully dictators, and the TRAs have learned well.

Well! Firstly the rape crisis centre in Edinburgh does not mainly focus on men. It provide services for all women including transwomen. It does not force anyone to take part in any form of counselling they refuse (really what counselling service would?). However because transwomen are not easily identifiable and are using the service they cannot guarantee that a service user will not encounter a transwoman when visiting.
And the "reframe your trauma" is a standard process in a lot of feminist rape counselling. It is a process. which focusses on providing the victim with the tools to see their assault as something other than their personal responsibility and to see it as part of a patriachal system which uses power to subject and victimise minority groups in order to retain control. It helps many women who are able to stop blaming themselves for their assault.
I have no objection to a facility catering just for people who were born women but continuing to misrepresent and vilify a service which has, and still does, offer support to women who have been raped and assaulted, is not acceptable. Your criticism and negativity could result in a woman failing to access the help she needs. JKR's venture may be welcome but it cannot supply services to all the women who need help. So stop imposing your personal views on the subject and support all counselling for rape victims, because women are raped and men are raped. It isn't a sex crime. It is about power and violence and all help for the victims should be encouraged.

On this thread, or another, Glorianny quoted "You don't know what you've got till it's gone." which certainly applies to this situation.
So many women who can't imagine that the lunacy we talk about is really happening, and don't believe they are losing rights.

Yes, Mumsnet is one of the few places where actual discussion can take place.

Even Mumsnet?
Mumsnet has supported women's right to talk about this for a long time.

It tucks the posts away in 'Feminism- sex & gender' so those who think it's all boring and there's no problem can just ignore it all.

For once, even MUMSNET seem to be on the same page as us on this. www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4698418-the-times-rape-crisis-founder-backs-jkr-23-voters-oppose-grr-sturgeon-husband-and-snp-loan-and-film-screening-stories

I support others, support equal rights, but as women we have been conditioned to come last and that's why we have accepted this initially. I have been afraid of being labelled a TERF, but actually time and political correctness have shown that we as women do need our own spaces and we should have that right.

We have been "too nice" in putting everyone else first. But we need to look after number one as well.

I watched the Adult Human Female film in your link, gdh. Thanks for posting it. It was good, and a clear explanation of why fact-based feminists are concerned about the trans agenda.

It’s not anti-trans, just anti the way the trans agenda wants to take rights from women, so the reaction against it is all the more concerning. To deny women the right to even listen to a feminist film goes beyond controlling behaviour. It’s hard to tell from the Twitter clip how many TRAs were bullying the women- was it an organised picket or a random and self-elected spokesman? Either way, the police should have arrested the protesters, or at least made it safe for people to attend the screening.

The film is about 90 mins long, so it’s not easy to see who the intended audience is - that’s a commitment for those who don’t know or care about the issues, and a lot of what is said is the sort of thing we’ve been saying on here for ages.

It’s definitely worth a watch for the curious though, and for anyone ’on the fence’ about the issues.

One thing that struck me when watching was that if so-called ‘intersectional feminists’ are concerned about how the concerns of one group impact on those of another, why are they so vociferous in their defence of those who want to take rights from women?

It's why there were mistakes made early on. It should have been a blanket no straight away, now we are having to try to roll back the mistakes.

Doodledog

I think that women are usually socialised to be 'kind', and to try to accommodate the wishes of others, so when we were asked to make space for transwomen we did, and then, like the frog in the pot, we didn't notice as the requests became demands and cranked up and up, until now we are not so much making space as being pushed aside.

I agree that it is heartening to see more people joining in. Welcome, all of you, and as gdh says, please spread the word before it is too late.

YES!

We are brought up to "be nice", to accomodate others. But then we often don't realise that in accomodating others, we can erode our own self worth and forget our own needs.

As women we need to strike a balance between accomodating and being kind to others but also BEING KIND TO OURSELVES. Otherwise we become further eroded in terms of our own rights and what we have to give to society.

Is that another threat, disguised as journalism? Or another lie by males and TRA.
I’m amazed that males don’t mind the TIM reflection on them -that men are greedy, dog in the manger, liars and cheaters.
Thank goodness it’s only a few.

The independent is so captured by gender ideology. They have just published article on how JKRowling has just put a nail in her coffin for refusing to treat transwomen ( with penises ) Good grief.

Hi all you wonderful women who speak out for our hard won rights ! I have broken my right shoulder and am late to this thread as writing is difficult but I have to join in.
Yes the only other rape crisis centre in Edinburgh, where Biera has been launched, is run by and focuses on transgender men. ( a term more accurate than transwomen I find)
Its stance that survivors may need to be re-educated about trans rights as part of their recovery from sexual trauma is insulting and begs the question of who the service is for.
As Suzanne Moore ably said: “This pushing of a political view onto a woman at a time of profound trauma and crisis does not feel appropriate? Is it ethical? Professional? Many survivors do not feel comfortable about all this and repeatedly ask to be cared for by women. And by women only. Some may even refuse this service as a result“
.
I’m sure that some men who want to pass themselves as women receive verbal abuse and mockery. I’ve never witnessed it but I can imagine. In all my years of meeting and mixing with transwomen I have only ever been aware of great care for their comfort. However what we do know from statistics is they are not killed and harmed like women are.
So good that we are increasingly standing our ground knowing that we are not transphobic but are even more careful to protect women from chancers who are already abusing the safe spaces via laws that are favouring gender over sex. Gender ideology harms females that’s the beginning and end of it and we have had enough and are so grateful when women with a public voice say so. And in JKRowling’s case stumps up the cash. Bravo and thank you. We will overcome

Like most women, I have been grabbed, touched up, pressed against etcetera. From an early age I was taught to be cautious and protect myself.

When I was 17 I lived in Belgium. I had gone to stay at my uncle’s flat in Brussels for the weekend. He had gone back to the U.K. for a visit so I was enjoying some alone time. The caretaker called in. I thought nothing of it, I had known him for years. Usual pleasantries, “where are your parents?” Etc. I just answered innocently, suspecting nothing. He then kept trying to persuade me to have an alcoholic drink with him and a dance. I suddenly realised how much danger I was in. The flat had a restaurant downstairs with stock above. The floor above was vacant. There were no neighbours above, below or adjacent, no landline and this was long before the days of mobile phones. I had a man on top of me who, although of a slight build was considerably stronger than me and he was not taking my very loud and emphatic “no’s” as an answer.

I believe that the only thing that stopped me from being raped was me shouting at the top of my lungs, over and over, in French. “How would you like it if someone did this to your daughter?” (she was about my age).

My goodness, was this an object lesson. I was pretty ‘off men’ for a while after this experience. I certainly understand why women who have been on the receiving end of violence and sexual violence from men would want a female only space.

I feel sympathy for trans people, I have seen them encounter horrible abuse. Services exist for trans people. Should there be more? Yes. But then there should be more services for women who have experienced and continue to experience abuse too. Why can’t there just be separate services for women, men and trans people who have experienced sexual abuse? Why are women being compelled to accept that someone who is not female and may well retain male genitalia as a female just because they identify as such?

Another wee look at Robyn, a TIM, who is also a Trans and Non-binary Officer at EU Student’s Association.

twitter.com/satiricole/status/1603164793946443777?s=61&t=3SeUGLfCzrSRld9xlLu28g

And Robyn again. I am pro-choice, do not agree in any way with the original demonstrators but how he behaves towards them is sheer thuggery.

twitter.com/postpmdd/status/1603169394506481665?s=61&t=yN6DMNM-x8y8IfnbSVA5gw

I think that women are usually socialised to be 'kind', and to try to accommodate the wishes of others, so when we were asked to make space for transwomen we did, and then, like the frog in the pot, we didn't notice as the requests became demands and cranked up and up, until now we are not so much making space as being pushed aside.

I agree that it is heartening to see more people joining in. Welcome, all of you, and as gdh says, please spread the word before it is too late.

Doodledog

That makes sense Dickens, thanks. I don't see things like that, but I don't look for them. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but honestly - the only 'hate' I see is from TRAs against people (usually women) who speak out against them. There has always been hatred of people who are different, so it's no surprise that some of that is reserved for transpeople, though.

I am well aware that I live in a relatively protected bubble, but when I hear criticism of transpeople it is always about the Stonewall agenda of erasing women altogether, violent TRAs and those who abuse lesbians - not about 'ordinary' people who just want to live quietly. Anyone being 'unkind' about 'ordinary' transpeople would be give short shrift.

That's one of the reasons it is so exasperating on here - constantly being told that criticising the notion of 'gender' is equivalent to being racist, homophobic and more, when it is simply not true. Similarly, hearing from politicians that transpeople are 'the most marginalised people in society' just doesn't ring true either - far from it.

Thanks for the reply Doodledog.

What struck me forcefully about the 'debate' on the SM site I mentioned was the similarity between the aggression towards women who wanted to be in a female-only night club in order to avoid the constant male harassment quite a few seem to experience, and the hostile attitude towards women by TWAs to women who also, basically, want a safe, exclusive environment when they are at their most vulnerable.

The connection is - men. The most aggressive comments on the site I was on were made by men. The venom aimed at women by trans women comes from the activists, who are the most bellicose, the most (dare I say it) "macho" in their demands. Men, who want to dominate women, exert their power over them, restrict their freedoms. This kind of aggression is very much a 'male' trait.

It's men, biological men, dressed in women's clothes or male attire, reminding women that they are basically in charge - defining a woman's role accordingly.

I will never accept that trans women are the same as biological women, there may be some points where we conform with each other, but overall, our life experiences, our biology is different to theirs.

Doodledog I keep hoping I’ll wake up and realise this has all been a very prolonged nightmare.
A lot of people, including myself, didn’t/don’t realise how long this has all been building up. Feminists like Kara Dansky, Jane Clare Jones, Julie Bindel have been fighting it for years but most of us (again, me included) were either just not listening and/or just not believing.
What I have found very comforting is the new names (to me) who have posted on this thread. Thank you one and all, please, please make your voices heard outwith G’snet also.