should the government be ashamed

As a forces parent, my sympathies lie with the army personnel who have had their leave cancelled and are unable to spend Christmas with their families.

No argument there grannygravy, other than the obvious point that the government is responsible

Aveline, I’m glad you aren’t a politician 🌞

GrannyGravy13

As a forces parent, my sympathies lie with the army personnel who have had their leave cancelled and are unable to spend Christmas with their families.

I agree, and in many cases being expected to carry out roles which they aren’t experienced in, which must be very difficult for them.

We had our first Covid vaccinations in a centre staffed by the army. They were excellent. Very well organised. Seemed odd and a bit disconcerting to see soldiers in uniform in charge. Scary somehow.

I agree Aveline, much as it’s good to have military who can step in to
Many varied roles, it’s disconcerting to see them misused by this government

Exactly . So many blinkered people saying it’s all about money. It’s conditions too. For example how utterly scandalous is it that nurses have to pay to park at the hospital?

This is a money issue too. I agree its scandalous, especially if they are on a shift that means they can't use public transport.
However, I think it's scandalous that patients and visitors have to pay too. It must add to the worry for those who can't afford it, when someone is sick.

Wyllow3

*Dibbydod*, this simply isn't true.

"We are all struggling with the high cost of living, the prices have gone sky high in the supermarkets, we are all in the same boat "

All of us on gransnet have very different incomes. Some of us here will be struggling, others absorb the extras on basics like heating and price rises. And we have different needs as well, different care costs also on.

And it depends how far the income has to go. Mine is enough for tiny mortgage not the £1000++ young families are shelling out, mortgage and after all I'm just supporting me in food and clothes etc, not a family, and enough to keep my house warm and food, and run a car.

Some here still expect to go on holidays and travel abroad as they have before, as a norm, others accepted its not do-able any more.

"We are all" very different.

But I do pay tax and I would be prepared to pay more, as others do in some other European countries, for decent public services. You get what you pay for. somehow many British people believe in the total myth that you can have low taxes and decent services, well, you cant.

Quite right, we can’t have European standards in public services with USA levels of taxes.

J52

volver

Farzanah

Sadly some members of the present government feel no shame at all. Just check out a card which Priti Patel has sent out for Christmas. I didn’t believe it was for real but seems it is.
Sorry can’t link on iPad.

Patel's Christmas card.

static.independent.co.uk/2022/12/20/18/patel-xmas-card.jpg?quality=75&width=1368&auto=webp

I wondered if it was a spoof, but apparently not. Disgusting, uncaring and just shows how blatantly the government show contempt for people.

It also shows how low this government has sunk.

I doubt this kind of card would have been seen as acceptable from a conservative government of yesteryear.

It makes me think of the cartoons that appeared during the 1930s Weimar Republic which targeted the Jewish community.

How have we arrived at this point?

I think Theresa May instigated it with her "Go Home" billboard, her clampdown on the 'undocumented' Windrush generation and their families. Does anyone remember the story of the 83 year old great-grandfather and the 78 year old great-grandmother that she tried to separate from their 4 British children, grandchildren and great grand-children - by forcing them to return to Iran? Fortunately, a backlash and a petition resulted in a climb-down by the home office.

But she legitimised the antagonism - and hatred - towards immigrants already brewing.

... and then along came Boris Johnson. And I won't even dignify his comments by repeating them. Not satisfied wih demonising the 'usual suspects' he incorporated virtually all other Europeans - but especially east Europeans, who the day after Brexit 'victory' day were told by various sections of the public to "go home", "we don't want you here", "you're not allowed to stay here now".

And here we are, with that spiteful and distasteful card. Playing to a now very receptive public gallery.

The season of goodwill to all men, eh?

Dickens , I’ve just read your post. It made me feel chilled. What’s happening to our country when someone in Braverman’s role sends a Christmas card like that
It’s astounding that anyone could consider voting for this right wing disfunctional Tory party
If I was a conspiracy theorist, I may believe a foreign power had gained influence and was hell bent on destroying our country

Disgusting Xmas card from Patel but what can you expect? She's a Tory.

Blinko

Wyllow3

Dibbydod, this simply isn't true.

"We are all struggling with the high cost of living, the prices have gone sky high in the supermarkets, we are all in the same boat "

All of us on gransnet have very different incomes. Some of us here will be struggling, others absorb the extras on basics like heating and price rises. And we have different needs as well, different care costs also on.

And it depends how far the income has to go. Mine is enough for tiny mortgage not the £1000++ young families are shelling out, mortgage and after all I'm just supporting me in food and clothes etc, not a family, and enough to keep my house warm and food, and run a car.

Some here still expect to go on holidays and travel abroad as they have before, as a norm, others accepted its not do-able any more.

"We are all" very different.

But I do pay tax and I would be prepared to pay more, as others do in some other European countries, for decent public services. You get what you pay for. somehow many British people believe in the total myth that you can have low taxes and decent services, well, you cant.

Quite right, we can’t have European standards in public services with USA levels of taxes.

Agree

And another thing. I’ve always felt European, never American. No disrespect to our American friends. I’m not unfriendly to the USA, far from it but I’m much more European than American.

So yes, pay European/scandi taxes, have good public services, like other European countries

It broke a bit of my heart when we "left" Europe. Our culture is embedded for centuries with Europe, not the USA.

MaizieD

Aveline

Also I just heard that with the army and navy on passport control there are no queues. Not doing much for the credibility of the usual staff. Strikers beware of undermining themselves.

I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find that there are more passport control points open when manned (personed?) by the forces then there are when manned by the normal staff.

It's very effective in dividing opinion, isn't it?

Hmmm...

This would definitely keep the queues down...

news.sky.com/story/passengers-waved-through-border-control-to-avoid-queues-as-workers-strike-12774255

news.sky.com/story/passengers-waved-through-border-control-to-avoid-queues-as-workers-strike-12774255

So which bit is true?
The version that they are ‘waving people through’ or the version that non striking staff are on hand to deal with issues such as giving out IS81 forms?

The Guardian 24/12/2022. UK Border Force strike: armed forces cannot detain people, emails reveal.

That’s already been said, but in the first report it says that people able to do so are on duty. Is that a lie do you suppose?

Well both sides have their point of view Mollygo.

Those who think the strikers are in the wrong, will jump on any excuse to show that they are shooting themselves in the foot.

The representatives of the strikers will be keen to show that the job isn't being done as effectively as it was before.

I have no doubt that there are people on duty who can issue this form. But not nearly as many usual because if there was, they wouldn't need to call in the forces.

For once, I agree with you Volver.
The media support the strikers, the headlines show that, but they have to post the truth as well, preferably in small print at the end of an article.
But then again they don’t support them, by posting headlines like 19% for nurses, which alienates many readers struggling to get buy with no chance of a pay rise.

I’ve supported the strikers, avoided the trains, tried not to get sick, though I didn’t turn away the ambulance last Wednesday morning and I accepted the prompt treatment offered.
I’ll support the teachers when they go on strike next year. What sort of pay rise will I get I wonder? Interesting to see if the army will be called in to run classes.

You’d be surprised at just how well all kinds of service personnel are able to deliver ‘education’. Maybe not School type but most could occupy a bunch of students. I doubt they’d be allowed though.

Well I am from a military family and I have no sympathy for the strikers, but then I guess I would say that wouldn't I?

...I guess I would say that wouldn't I?

Why?

Does being from a military family make you hard and uncaring, then?

No. Just supportive

Not supportive of nurses having to work double shifts for insulting pay rises, for instance? Or teachers having to buy supplies, and clothing and food for their pupils, because their school's budget has been cut to the bone and the parents can;t make ends meet? Or rail workers providing a service that goes outwith their Terms and Conditions?

Conditional support, then...

Supportive of her family and the work they are carrying out in order to keep things going for other people.