Public speaking

Yes, throwing someone in the water would be cruel. But allowing them to watch TV (or whatever) whilst others, who might also be nervous, learn to swim is not helpful either. Gentle encouragement to do what can be done, with the expectation that this will be built on gradually is more sensible, both in the case of the swimmer and the presenter.

The case of the university is tragic, but what are the staff to do when some students opt out of the set assignment, and expect to be assessed in other ways? Most people are nervous about presentations, and you can bet your boots that if one person is given a written assessment there will be complaints from those who presented, saying that they might have done better without the stress of a presentation, they have paid the same fees, etc etc. If the whole assignment is changed to a written one there would be complaints from dyslexics, or from the accrediting body who has input into the modes of assessment as a condition of accreditation. Students often want both to graduate with an accredited degree, but to bypass the bits that led to the accreditation. Then people start to complain that standards are falling, and it is easier to get high marks than it used to be. Of course it is if assignments are designed to be as easy as possible, and people can opt out of ones they don't like the sound of.

That sounds unsympathetic, but I'm really not. I think that there should be coaching available for all kinds of study skills, and far more central university welfare than the current budgets (and the allocation of those budgets by highly-paid VCs) allows.

It's just that a combination of dealing with all of the things described above, trying to keep everyone happy, and working with people who go off with stress regularly with no thought for those whose workload goes up as someone has to do the things that were stressing them has hardened me a bit.

People know before they apply for a course of study or a line of work that it will involve what it involves, and the payoff is the degree or the salary. If they are unable to fulfil their side of the bargain they should choose a different course, or a different job. The whole concept of university is based on elitism. Only those with certain grades can do particular courses, and the people wanting to opt out of things like presentations don't complain about that - their place has been gained on the basis of the skills they have and someone else doesn't, as measured by A level exams, which don't allow people to choose which papers to sit. How is it then fair to expect to get the same qualification as someone who has done the presentation when they haven't, or get the same salary as someone who turns up for the stressful event when they are at home with stress? I can't help thinking that teaching children (and I'm not saying that this applies to your grandson, Aveline) that they can just refuse to do things leads to students insisting on alternative assessments, and colleagues staying off when the going gets tough.

Doodledog

Yes, throwing someone in the water would be cruel. But allowing them to watch TV (or whatever) whilst others, who might also be nervous, learn to swim is not helpful either. Gentle encouragement to do what can be done, with the expectation that this will be built on gradually is more sensible, both in the case of the swimmer and the presenter.

The case of the university is tragic, but what are the staff to do when some students opt out of the set assignment, and expect to be assessed in other ways? Most people are nervous about presentations, and you can bet your boots that if one person is given a written assessment there will be complaints from those who presented, saying that they might have done better without the stress of a presentation, they have paid the same fees, etc etc. If the whole assignment is changed to a written one there would be complaints from dyslexics, or from the accrediting body who has input into the modes of assessment as a condition of accreditation. Students often want both to graduate with an accredited degree, but to bypass the bits that led to the accreditation. Then people start to complain that standards are falling, and it is easier to get high marks than it used to be. Of course it is if assignments are designed to be as easy as possible, and people can opt out of ones they don't like the sound of.

That sounds unsympathetic, but I'm really not. I think that there should be coaching available for all kinds of study skills, and far more central university welfare than the current budgets (and the allocation of those budgets by highly-paid VCs) allows.

It's just that a combination of dealing with all of the things described above, trying to keep everyone happy, and working with people who go off with stress regularly with no thought for those whose workload goes up as someone has to do the things that were stressing them has hardened me a bit.

People know before they apply for a course of study or a line of work that it will involve what it involves, and the payoff is the degree or the salary. If they are unable to fulfil their side of the bargain they should choose a different course, or a different job. The whole concept of university is based on elitism. Only those with certain grades can do particular courses, and the people wanting to opt out of things like presentations don't complain about that - their place has been gained on the basis of the skills they have and someone else doesn't, as measured by A level exams, which don't allow people to choose which papers to sit. How is it then fair to expect to get the same qualification as someone who has done the presentation when they haven't, or get the same salary as someone who turns up for the stressful event when they are at home with stress? I can't help thinking that teaching children (and I'm not saying that this applies to your grandson, Aveline) that they can just refuse to do things leads to students insisting on alternative assessments, and colleagues staying off when the going gets tough.

Golly Doodledog did you miss out/take the day off when the disability awareness training was done?
Adapting and changing is precisely what it involves.
Imagining that one size fits all and the individual not the system has to change is so discriminatory.

In my area spoken language tests, assessed by the teacher are part of GCSE English. These must be done in front of a small audience which in practice usually means in front of the class. That being the case, I can see why primary teachers are trying to develop the skills required. I agree that there should be some sort of accommodation to support nervous children. The first step would seem to be to speak with the teacher.

Golly Doodledog did you miss out/take the day off when the disability awareness training was done?
Adapting and changing is precisely what it involves.
Imagining that one size fits all and the individual not the system has to change is so discriminatory.
How many professional bodies have you dealt with when writing all the degrees you've taught?

How did you explain to one student that another could be assessed differently from them?

How did you adapt your workload to accommodate the numerous different assessment methods that might be demanded if different students got their way?

How did you persuade central QC committees that it was fair to have a range of assessment methods in one module?

And then do the same to External Examiners?

None of this is my circus any more, but all the same, I'd be very interested to know how you managed it.

Agree that standing is a large part of the problem a that age and that children should be given the choice whether to sit or stand.

a child cannot choose another course.
no wonder so many struggle with mental health when such unnecessary burdens are imposed on them.
i think it is akin to throwing them in water at the deep end.
that used to be commonplace too.

welbeck

a child cannot choose another course.
no wonder so many struggle with mental health when such unnecessary burdens are imposed on them.
i think it is akin to throwing them in water at the deep end.
that used to be commonplace too.

No, I was talking a out the university student who was introduced to the thread before my post.

The throwing into water analogy has already been mentioned, too. I think that rather than sending a nervous child out of the pool they could stay in the shallow end until they get used to it, and in the case of presentations they could (as a class) start by something like being asked to stand up when addressing the class, eg answering a question, and take it in stages from there. I doubt they would go from nothing to a full-blown presentation in one go, which would be asking a lot.

He had to do it last year too and found it such an ordeal that he's a nervous wreck today.

Poor kid. Has his mum spoken to the teacher?

Yes. Just told he had to do it. Something to discuss at parents night!!

generally teachers are having to do this because childern cant
speak anymore
texting is ruining the ability to communcate

My DGS is a bright lad. No problems with communicating. It's the public speaking aspect that he finds so anxiety provoking.

Doodledog

*Golly Doodledog did you miss out/take the day off when the disability awareness training was done?*
Adapting and changing is precisely what it involves.
Imagining that one size fits all and the individual not the system has to change is so discriminatory.
How many professional bodies have you dealt with when writing all the degrees you've taught?

How did you explain to one student that another could be assessed differently from them?

How did you adapt your workload to accommodate the numerous different assessment methods that might be demanded if different students got their way?

How did you persuade central QC committees that it was fair to have a range of assessment methods in one module?

And then do the same to External Examiners?

None of this is my circus any more, but all the same, I'd be very interested to know how you managed it.

Let's come at this from another angle. The right of a disabled person to have any reasonable adjustments made to a course to enable them to access the course or session. This includes those with mental health problems.

Most students and universities are aware of their obligations and the legal challenges that they can face if the adjustments are not made.

If you don't recognise the rights of someone with acute anxiety to have adjustments made you are in fact discriminating against them, which is simply illegal.

The point being that introducing such adjustments successfully requires a change of focus ,from the idea that any adjustment necessarily makes something unfair, to the realisation that reasonable adjustments are not only possible but desirable, and being open minded to the idea.
I'm pleased it isn't your circus anymore and things have moved on.

I can totally sympathise with him. I vividly remember being thrown out of one classroom because I point blank refused to stand up and sing in front of everyone. I've had to speak in public as an adult and it still makes me feel sick with nerves to have to stand up and speak in front of an audience. I can understand why some say it's a skill worth developing, but I still feel it's wrong to put a child through that when it's clearly making them so anxious and upset.

Things just got worse. DD just told me that his presentation has been put back till next Monday. Another week of anxiety for him.
We just want to somehow make him feel better about it but we just can't.

You didn't answer a single one of my questions, Glorianny. 'Coming from another angle' was simply avoiding saying what you would have done - I assume you have never been asked to deal with any of those things personally, or you wouldn't have been so rude.

For someone who bleats so much about 'personal remarks' when anyone disagrees with you, you aren't shy about making them, are you?

Aveline I can understand your concern for your grandchild, however I doubt they will allow him not to do it.

I used to teach Public Speaking to adults and many told me they were going to be sick before the talk, but it never happened. I use to give them tips on getting through the talk, however not knowing what he has to talk about I can only give general tips.

Help him prepare his talk.
Get him to write out the main points on a small piece of paper
OR I taught my students mind mapping which children also like to do. Mind mapping is a visual form of notes like a spidergram.
Suggest he asks the class a question relating to the talk as this helps deflect the attention to others and gives him breathing space.
Or give out a picture or small item to pass round and look at.

The best piece of advice I was given when I was being taught to give a presentation is as follows. ‘Make your presentation shorter than anyone dares to hope’ 😉

You may of course know the above Aveline as I believe you taught too.

Best of luck to your lad.

Thanks. We're already on to all the hints and tips we can think of. He can't even look at the class far less get them to ask questions. He's got classic exposure anxiety. I can only hope he grows out if it.
I asked DD how the other children seemed to feel about it and, according to the school gate mums group, they're all a bit different. Some are looking forward to it, others dreading it and the rest are neither up nor down about it.

Doodledog

You didn't answer a single one of my questions, Glorianny. 'Coming from another angle' was simply avoiding saying what you would have done - I assume you have never been asked to deal with any of those things personally, or you wouldn't have been so rude.

For someone who bleats so much about 'personal remarks' when anyone disagrees with you, you aren't shy about making them, are you?

Of course I didn't. It is only entitled and entrenched people who imagine theirs is the only possible angle to take on something and only they, and people like them have any right to review or criticise practices.
Strangely enough they are also the people who find it had to accommodate those with disabilities.
Thankfully things are changing and more people who are different are accessing higher education.

Here's a simple example. If you have a student who is visually impaired you would provide them with information in a form they could use, you would permit them to bring their guide dog to lectures and make sure they were able to comfortably use and find any equipment they might need
You wouldn't just expect them to manage without those things
So why wouldn't you discuss with them what someone with anxiety needed and provide that help?

Aveline I haven’t read all the posts here so I might be replicating what others have said. So could his parents speak to the Head Teacher and explain the situation and say he has a phobia of speaking in front of the class and be exempted. As this is a mental health issue he should be given allowed to opt out.

It's compulsory. Part of the curriculum and must be completed.

Glorianny
Of course staff would discuss things with students - you are making ridiculous assumptions based on prejudice, not knowledge.

It has nothing to do with being entrenched or entitled. Any university will have disability policies - I have helped to craft them. My points, which of course you have ignored, are that there are other considerations.

I cba to reiterate them for the benefit of someone as closed-minded as you are, but other readers might consider how they would react when someone says they want to basically take a different course from other students, and that course has been accredited by a professional body who insists on particular skills being assessed. Or how they would ensure that assessment is fair when one person adheres to the assignment as set, and one is given a get-out. Or how they would organise their teams so that people have time to complete marking in different ways. These things don't happen in a vacuum, either. There are QC committees who ensure that assessment across modules and courses are equal, and External Examiners ensure that fairness extends across the sector. However enlightened someone may be, they can't simply alter an assessment for a particular student, except in your head.

I realise that you think you know everything about everything, but universities are not primary schools from the past. I would not presume to tell you how your job used to work, so please refrain from telling me how mine does. I have stepped back from decision-making, but am still employed, albeit part-time, so I am still aware of how things work today, whatever you may think.

(sorry, Aveline. I didn't mean to derail your thread like this, and again, I hope your GS is ok )

Doodledog

Glorianny
Of course staff would discuss things with students - you are making ridiculous assumptions based on prejudice, not knowledge.

It has nothing to do with being entrenched or entitled. Any university will have disability policies - I have helped to craft them. My points, which of course you have ignored, are that there are other considerations.

I cba to reiterate them for the benefit of someone as closed-minded as you are, but other readers might consider how they would react when someone says they want to basically take a different course from other students, and that course has been accredited by a professional body who insists on particular skills being assessed. Or how they would ensure that assessment is fair when one person adheres to the assignment as set, and one is given a get-out. Or how they would organise their teams so that people have time to complete marking in different ways. These things don't happen in a vacuum, either. There are QC committees who ensure that assessment across modules and courses are equal, and External Examiners ensure that fairness extends across the sector. However enlightened someone may be, they can't simply alter an assessment for a particular student, except in your head.

I realise that you think you know everything about everything, but universities are not primary schools from the past. I would not presume to tell you how your job used to work, so please refrain from telling me how mine does. I have stepped back from decision-making, but am still employed, albeit part-time, so I am still aware of how things work today, whatever you may think.

(sorry, Aveline. I didn't mean to derail your thread like this, and again, I hope your GS is ok )

That's a bit of a change from
People know before they apply for a course of study or a line of work that it will involve what it involves, and the payoff is the degree or the salary. If they are unable to fulfil their side of the bargain they should choose a different course, or a different job. The whole concept of university is based on elitism. Only those with certain grades can do particular courses, and the people wanting to opt out of things like presentations don't complain about that - their place has been gained on the basis of the skills they have and someone else doesn't, as measured by A level exams, which don't allow people to choose which papers to sit. How is it then fair to expect to get the same qualification as someone who has done the presentation when they haven't, or get the same salary as someone who turns up for the stressful event when they are at home with stress?

As for not criticising primary schools isn't I can't help thinking that teaching children (and I'm not saying that this applies to your grandson, Aveline) that they can just refuse to do things leads to students insisting on alternative assessments, and colleagues staying off when the going gets tough doing just that?

Alternative arrangements when they prevent students from committing suicide would seem petty vital to me.

As for children refusing. If a child was so distressed as to be in tears he would be unlikely to do a decent presentation anyway, so it isn't a question of allowing them to refuse it is a question of ensuring they are able to achieve and properly show what they are able to do and supporting them to do that.

I see a similarity of attitude between someone who thinks students with stress are somehow cheating and that children who are demonstrably upset are somehow refusing to take part in an activity. So actually the level doesn't matter.The commitment to equality of opportunity, the willingness to accommodate needs and the recognition and acknowledgement of disability rights is.
I've seen many people at all levels who have written and/or been involved in disability policies but who just paid lip service to them.
.

Visgir1

I can clearly recommend doing this when I was about 9 years old.. We all had to give a presentation as they would call it now. That was mid 1960's. I was terrified but did it..
Hope the little chap is OK.

I remember doing this too, age 9 or maybe 10. I didn’t want to do it, and my friends didn’t either and we were glad when it was over.Poor little boy Aveline things like this are a big deal to kids and will be on their minds.
I remember a little class mate being happy to do it and then forgetting what to say and bursting into tears. Most of us glumly got through it tho.

I've seen many people at all levels who have written and/or been involved in disability policies but who just paid lip service to them.
Ah, yet another personal dig. Is that in the spirit of Gransnet? 😂😂

Me too, but that doesn’t apply in my case - not that I expect you to believe it because of your prejudice against me.

You still haven’t explained how you would deal with any of the things I mentioned - are you happy just to insult me but not engage with what I am saying?

How would you do it? Never mind the platitudes - if your grandchild did a presentation and got a lower mark than someone who didn’t (and that person went on to get a first which gave them access to entry to something denied your GC), or if the accreditation of the course your child was on was removed because assessments had changed, so they couldn’t enter their chosen profession would you be so blasé, or would you be demanding your fees back? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you would sacrifice your children or grandchildren on the altar of equal rights (in which case, why send them to university in the first place, as not everyone is capable of that) there are very many parents who would not, and policies have to be cognisant of that. How would you answer them when they complained that their child had been disadvantaged in favour of another?

I won’t lower myself to personal insults but it’s fair to say that I have known people who are hypocrites in all walks of life, and those who consider themselves experts in all aspects of everything, but that rarely turns out to be true when their comments are questioned. They usually avoid answering.