Neopronouns

Using wrong-sex pronouns is social affirmation.
It helps to cement, in the child's mind, that they really are the opposite sex, or no sex at all, or a fluctuating sex.
That leads to them appearing 'persistent, consistent & insistent' and to them proceeding to hormone treatment and/or surgery.

I would use a child's preferred name but not the wrong pronouns.
I don't think that should be seen as dismissing them. It's keeping them in reality.

For a child who is not a close relative of mine, I would try to avoid using pronouns for them at all.

VioletSky

Why would it be? We have gender neutral pronouns so it's just learning those in a different language or learning less pronouns in languages that are gender neutral only

Sorry but it isn’t. It’s not just a question of pronouns.

I agree, Luckygirl. When it affects loved ones it changes things. I haven’t had to deal with it on a close personal level- a good friend’s daughter is the nearest it’s come for me - but I can see how anyone would want to be supportive of a family member. I am entirely respectful of my friend’s daughter, although I don’t need to actually do anything one way or another apart from use her adopted name. If one of my own family wanted me to use different pronouns and make other adaptations I can’t imagine not doing so.

It is ‘the system’ that should change, IMO. I am unaware of how transpeople are ‘marginalised’ as we are told every single time they come up in parliament or in tv interviews (to the point where it has the non-impact of a brainwashing party slogan such as ‘strong and stable’).

I have asked on here for examples of marginalisation, as well as which rights transpeople are denied, and met with the usual nil response, but if it is the case that they are marginalised then it should be stopped. There should be no discrimination of any kind, no exclusion, and zero tolerance of hate crimes against any minority.

That should not mean, however, that everyone else should be expected to go along with an ideology that erases women and puts our safety at risk. Children’s activities should remain sex-based where there is a need for segregation (eg sport, toilets and changing), and wear what they like (although uniforms are supported by many), but otherwise so-called ‘gender’ issues should be ignored. Adults should not be forced to declare pronouns or be gaslit into denying the evidence of their eyes. We should be able to use our own language and not have politically motivated changes thrust upon us.

If we had a separate category of transpeople then records could be kept of reliable data, so that any prejudice or discrimination would be apparent and could be prevented. At the same time, separate data would ensure that discrimination against women would also be recorded.

Private preferences needn’t be forced on others. We go to work to do our jobs, and children go to school to learn. Both need protection from discrimination and/or abuse, but neither needs to insist on forcing their world view on everyone.

Abitbarmy I was laughing with some friends last night and Terry Wogan's "home for the bewildered" came up :-)

These days I do feel "bewildered" a lot of the time.

I'm only grateful I'm not in the workplace having to navigate all these factors. I feel sorry for anyone who is having to do their job AND manage all these factors.

I think it's absolutely difficult for families luckygirl, particularly as the previous advice has not been supported by any data or follow up.

Galaxy

Social affirmation for young people is not advised under NHS guidelines, so I would follow those guidelines.
They can ask you to wear your pronouns they cant enforce it.

I don't think it is s simple as that sounds. If someone you love dearly, and who is going through a difficult confused time in their mind, asks you to call them they and says they wish to change gender is it "social affirmation" to respect their wishes; or are we just trying to respect them and not push them away or into conflict with us if we comply? They need us more than ever just now and dismissing their wishes will not help.

Social affirmation for young people is not advised under NHS guidelines, so I would follow those guidelines.
They can ask you to wear your pronouns they cant enforce it.

I too get confused with all the wokery pronouns, and will just see it as I call it for an easy life, unless an individual specifically tells me otherwise, then I will respect their wishes. Unfortunately it may enter my life, I have a little part time job in a well known shop and they are talking about putting our preferred pronouns on our name badges, this has annoyed me. A lot are in favour of and a lot against, I am definitely against.
I also object to being labelled as cisgender, again why should wokery impact the gender that people are born who wish to remain male/female.
I am all for freedom of choice, but other peoples choices are their own, so why should their choice impact me, and force me to be labelled?

Luckygirl3

As someone with a late teens grandchild who is wanting to change gender, I can endorse how hard it is to remember to use "they" - in my aged mind it is a plural. But I wish to try and respect their wishes, and do my best.

I have told them that I love them dearly and will sometimes get it wrong.

I can only endorse exactly what Luckygirl says. Two of my g.children prefer the pronoun 'They' when I refer to them. They know that I sometimes forget, but that i do try to respect their wishes.

Ilove being called 'woke', which I take as meaning that I care about other people and their feelings.

Language is always changing and developing, so very many words from the past that are never used and would not be understood these days.

If young people want to be referred to as 'They', rather than he/she - then that is fine by me. Least can do - when I think about all the problems in the world that I am passing on to that generation.

Why would it be? We have gender neutral pronouns so it's just learning those in a different language or learning less pronouns in languages that are gender neutral only

VioletSky

It's iel in French

A lot of languages have gender neutral options...

Some have no gendered language at all. No he or she or his or her... completely gender neutral

And a lot still have genders (grammatically speaking) i was Merely pointing out how hard it must be to teach it

HowVeryDareYou

Baggs

The demand for neopronouns is control freakery – control the language people use and you're on the way to controlling their thoughts. It's orwellian claptrap.

I agree

No one's demanding anyone use neopronouns. They are for the most part restricted to interactions on internet and gaming sites Occasionally someone might try to have one used in real life- like"ze". I see no difference between that and the attempts in the '70s of the women's movement to re-identify and change the word "woman" There were lots of alternatives bandied around but we seem to have finished up with the original .
Ms was slightly more successful.

Doodledog

I can't understand how someone NB feels, Doodle, as I don't feel that people fit into stereotypes. I am a woman, but I sometimes wear trousers, and sometimes drink pints or cut my hair (it's long just now). I keep asking what being a woman is, but even those who claim that it's possible to 'become' one can't tell me, so I'm left with those external markers, as I already have the hormones and body of a woman. To me, someone saying that they are non-binary is suggesting that other people are (by definition) binary, and that conjures up pictures of women in circular skirts and red lipstick, beaming as they stir cake mix before cleaning the sink and polishing the children before their husband gets home from his manly job.

I don't know many people as binary as that, so I don't see the need for anyone to make a fuss about having a NB 'gender' - most of us do, whether our sex is male or female.

So what you are actually doing is saying you have to know what gender a person is and they have to identify with one gender. Isn't that just as restricting to someone as the lipstick etc you think of as restrictive for women?
Non-binary people are restricted as they have to decide much of the time which facilities to use and they are not permitted to use non-binary on their passports.
We naturally (whatever we wear) make choices which are dependant on binary identities every day, if someone doesn't want to have to make those choices I think it's their right to do so.

Baggs

The demand for neopronouns is control freakery – control the language people use and you're on the way to controlling their thoughts. It's orwellian claptrap.

I agree

biglouis

There wasa thread on mumsnet a few days ago.

A young man (lets call him Bob) was speaking with a new colleague "Chris" who has the appearance of being male. A manager asks him to come over and Bob says "Ill be with you when Ive finished with him" (meaning Chris), Another employee reports Bob for misgendering Chris, who (unbeknown to Bob) identifies as female. Bob gets called up before the CEO and given a written warning. Chris has not complained.

As the manager I would have taken Bob quietly on one side and explained that Chris identifies as female.

I would give the snitch a real dressing down for being a trouble maker and a tattle tale.

So an example of bad managing, the reason was largely irrelevant. If Bob had mis identified Chris's position in the company would he have received the same treatment? Possibly not so one CEO overreacting really. It happens. Not all mangers are good managers.

AGAA4

I don't want to join in with this wokery unless someone specifically asks me to call them 'they'or similar I will just say as I see.

A most sensible approach in my opinion. I would do exactly the same AGAA4.

There wasa thread on mumsnet a few days ago.

A young man (lets call him Bob) was speaking with a new colleague "Chris" who has the appearance of being male. A manager asks him to come over and Bob says "Ill be with you when Ive finished with him" (meaning Chris), Another employee reports Bob for misgendering Chris, who (unbeknown to Bob) identifies as female. Bob gets called up before the CEO and given a written warning. Chris has not complained.

As the manager I would have taken Bob quietly on one side and explained that Chris identifies as female.

I would give the snitch a real dressing down for being a trouble maker and a tattle tale.

A trans writer (no longer with us) I used to like used ze as their pronoun.

Nanatoone

I know teachers have a problem with this, my daughter teaches 150 secondary children a day, why on Earth should she be expected to remember these idiosyncrasies? It seems a way of drawing attention to one self it seems to me. Being different seems to be an aim now. I don’t have a lot of patience for it. I do respect people’s rights to change their gender, it doesn’t bother me at all. I do think a lot of things have gone too far with no sign of stopping.

We teachers are expected to know far more than this. Once we've been told, we add a note our seating plan (or register) to remind us. It's part of our job 360 different students every 2 weeks.

Far easier to remember a non-standard pronoun than to upset a 15 year old and all the drama they can create. I've had students have meltdowns because someone looked in their direction or 'breathed wrong'.

It's iel in French

A lot of languages have gender neutral options...

Some have no gendered language at all. No he or she or his or her... completely gender neutral

So how do we teach MFL ? Does elle mean “she “ with appropriate verb ending ?Can we make an adjective agree ? Elle est petite etc ?
? Thank goodness I don’t have to deal with that !

I can't understand how someone NB feels, Doodle, as I don't feel that people fit into stereotypes. I am a woman, but I sometimes wear trousers, and sometimes drink pints or cut my hair (it's long just now). I keep asking what being a woman is, but even those who claim that it's possible to 'become' one can't tell me, so I'm left with those external markers, as I already have the hormones and body of a woman. To me, someone saying that they are non-binary is suggesting that other people are (by definition) binary, and that conjures up pictures of women in circular skirts and red lipstick, beaming as they stir cake mix before cleaning the sink and polishing the children before their husband gets home from his manly job.

I don't know many people as binary as that, so I don't see the need for anyone to make a fuss about having a NB 'gender' - most of us do, whether our sex is male or female.

Thank you

It can be quite hard to get your head around it all sometimes

But honestly it sounds like you care and want to get it right and I think that matters more to people than getting it wrong sometimes

No Violetsky I hope I made that clear in my OP. I did genuinely read an article in the paper this morning which mentioned ze and zir and I was wondering what people who used those terms were thinking about themselves. Like did those words have any particular qualities. I am ignorant about a lot of this which is why I looked up personal pronouns and came across the kitten thing.
I have to confess I find it difficult to understand non binary. I’m female born and have never wanted to be anything else. I do have a remote family member who was male and is transitioning to female and I can understand that but I find it difficult to understand what someone who considers themselves non binary feels.
I cannot of course control how the thread goes but no, that was certainly not my intention.

'They' can be used as singular when it is not referring to anyone in particular. So' if someone did X what would happen'? can be replied to with 'They would not know' (or whatever.)

It is when the pronoun refers to named people that it matters, as it is attached to a singular person or a group of people, and there is a difference.