Neopronouns

I’ll join you in the Lost (Stolen or Strayed) department!

Can I join too please?

The chances are they wouldn't know, Doodle. If you and I were in a group, I would refer to you as Doodle, whether I talked directly to you or was referring to you when talking to others (eg 'Would you pass this to Doodle, please?'). It would only be if you left the room that I would use a pronoun, as in 'Doodle has gone to the loo - does she take sugar in her coffee?' If I said 'does 'kittenself' (or would it be 'kittenthey'?) like sugar in her coffee, you would be no wiser. It seems to me incredibly self-obsessed to want to control the way people refer to you when you aren't there.

It is also disrespectful of others who may wish to keep their gender preferences to themselves when people insist that everyone should declare a pronoun. People may have one identity at work and another at home, particularly if 'home' is abroad in an intolerant society. Forcing the issue can make life very difficult in those circumstances, and I wish it would stop.

I’ll join too please. I often think of Terry Wogan and his home for the bewildered! I wonder what he would have made of everything these day. He did make me laugh.

Doodledog

The chances are they wouldn't know, Doodle. If you and I were in a group, I would refer to you as Doodle, whether I talked directly to you or was referring to you when talking to others (eg 'Would you pass this to Doodle, please?'). It would only be if you left the room that I would use a pronoun, as in 'Doodle has gone to the loo - does she take sugar in her coffee?' If I said 'does 'kittenself' (or would it be 'kittenthey'?) like sugar in her coffee, you would be no wiser. It seems to me incredibly self-obsessed to want to control the way people refer to you when you aren't there.

It is also disrespectful of others who may wish to keep their gender preferences to themselves when people insist that everyone should declare a pronoun. People may have one identity at work and another at home, particularly if 'home' is abroad in an intolerant society. Forcing the issue can make life very difficult in those circumstances, and I wish it would stop.

A very clear breakdown of the problems I have with it all too. Like you, I don’t understand the obsession with controlling how you are referred to in your absence. As for compelling everyone to declare a pronoun, I think rather than displaying tolerance, it actually demonstrates intolerance of a different kind, encourages virtue signalling, and is another example of the minority trying to control the majority.

Oh, you brought back memories there Abitbarmy!

I refuse to use the they/their pronouns when referring to a single person; it just creates confusion, particularly when used on the radio and the person concerned is not visible. I believe if I were still teaching I would lose my job.

I know teachers have a problem with this, my daughter teaches 150 secondary children a day, why on Earth should she be expected to remember these idiosyncrasies? It seems a way of drawing attention to one self it seems to me. Being different seems to be an aim now. I don’t have a lot of patience for it. I do respect people’s rights to change their gender, it doesn’t bother me at all. I do think a lot of things have gone too far with no sign of stopping.

The demand for neopronouns is control freakery – control the language people use and you're on the way to controlling their thoughts. It's orwellian claptrap.

www.spiked-online.com/2023/01/16/its-time-to-call-out-the-nonsense-of-nonbinary/amp/

This article (about the Brit awards) is worth a read. It's almost as if the trans ideology is anti-women . You reckon?

I don't want to join in with this wokery unless someone specifically asks me to call them 'they'or similar I will just say as I see.

Abitbarmy - loved Terry Wogan and his ‘home for the bewildered’. I used to listen to him on my way to work ..

The pronoun “they” just cannot be used in the singular without causing confusion. Really bad choice and not thought through in my opinion. I think even “he/she” is better or think up a new word completely. Maybe I’m missing something!

Many decades ago, some feminists wanted to do away with sexed pronouns and 'co' was suggested as a pronoun for everyone.
Of course no-one took any notice of them.

I will not be using she or he for anyone whom I know to be the opposite, but I would use 'they' for that person if I wanted to be polite , whether in their company or not.

One does sometimes use a 3rd person pronoun when the person concerned is present e.g. "I agree with Hattie when she says...." or in a group situation where the person is there and might overhear you.

AGAA4

I don't want to join in with this wokery unless someone specifically asks me to call them 'they'or similar I will just say as I see.

My approach too.

After all, for all of human history and use of language people have not had much trouble at all distinguishing between the two sexes.

FarNorth

Many decades ago, some feminists wanted to do away with sexed pronouns and 'co' was suggested as a pronoun for everyone.
Of course no-one took any notice of them.

I will not be using she or he for anyone whom I know to be the opposite, but I would use 'they' for that person if I wanted to be polite , whether in their company or not.

One does sometimes use a 3rd person pronoun when the person concerned is present e.g. "I agree with Hattie when she says...." or in a group situation where the person is there and might overhear you.

For clarity then: Should it be “I agree with Hattie when they say …..”?

I will use whatever pronoun someone wants in their presence, but I was taught not to use pronouns when you know the name. 'She is the cat's mother' was a refrain in my youth.

My friend's daughter is non-binary, and I will use 'they' if I remember, but I will not declare a pronoun for myself, and I will not start to refer to others as 'they' as a way of 'normalising' the term as a singular pronoun.

The assumption behind NB is that everyone else conforms to a binary gender position - ie that they are either stereotypically male or stereotypically female. I don't believe that people fit these stereotypes, so most of us are to some extent NB. We are, however, all either one sex or the other, so our so-called 'gender' preference is irrelevant to anyone other than ourselves.

I think I would be more comfortable and hear more common sense in Terry Wogan’s ‘Home For The Bewildered’

It's probably too late, but we do seem to need a better non-binary 3rd person singular pronoun. "They" doesn't work well, does it?
I'd have suggested "heesh" and "heer".
And by the way, when I read modern languages back in the sixties, gender was a grammatical concept. Now, gender means male or female, sort of extending to non-binary. The word for whether a human or animal was male or female was sex, but now that means copulation.
And what about the new Scottish law about 16-year-olds? Another thread I think.

For clarity then: Should it be “I agree with Hattie when they say …..”?

Only if Hattie wants people to use 'they' in that way.

They, them and their have been used in the singular for quite some time.

I guarantee every one of you have used them so.

Not only have we always had gender neutral pronouns but once it was acceptable to use "he" as a gender neutral pronoun and Shakespeare famously said "everyone has their failings" and so called grammatical experts were not pleased. But early feminists were extremelynot pleased for a male pronoun to be considered gender neutral and were not pleased that they could be referred to as "he" yet excluded from many organisations as "women".

They and them has also been used in the singular, well, since before all of us were born. When we do not know the gender of the other person. Examples:

"They cut me up!"

"They sent me an email"

"I asked them what they thought"

Dear readers, we are on an anonymous forum, we do not know who we are talking to. We would easily use they or them in the singular, for example:

Poster 1 "Has anyone seen username? I haven't seen them post for a week"

Poster 2 "yes they were posting this morning"

Poster 1 "were they? Oh I was worried about them"

As the language evolves people are trying out more pronouns, some will probably come into regular use and some won't.

Due to the need for gender neutral pronouns and their use in language, lots of people regularly use they, them or their in singular even when they know the gender of the person they are referring too. As you can probably tell, I am one of those people and despite using both words in the singular here on gransnet even when I know th gender, not a single pedant has pulled me up... because they also do it without realising.

If you are asked to use a pronoun I would oblige as its polite. If you aren't sure of a pronoun, using they, them or their is perfectly acceptable and long understood in the English language (even though people don't seem to notice they are already doing it).

If you are struggling remember those early feminists fighting to bring more pronouns into use and thankfully winning.

Using someone's chosen pronoun seems perfectly reasonable to me. I think it actually breaks down stereotypes because it assumes that you can't tell just by appearance anyone's gender. "They" also acknowledges that there are people who prefer not to tell you or to define themselves as man or woman.

Neopronouns are used by people on-line, not really in every day life. So I doubt if I will ever need them.

Violetsky yes I see what you mean about They cut me up and I would say that. What happens though if someone said I saw a person outside taking to their manager and they indicated they would like a cup of coffee. How would you know if one or two cups of coffee were required?

Doodle you used they in singular in the first sentence of your opening post because we all use it all the time without realising. I was doing it long before I ever heard of a changed pronoun.

I'd ask, "one cup or two?"