Neopronouns

Galaxy

How would I stop them saying they were non binary? How would they stop me saying gender is a concept imposed by society that damages both women and men?
You can say you are non binary, or female or male, you can be TW or TM, but if you ever need treatment specific to your natal sex, that is what will matter, unless of course you are happy to be refused treatment for you prostate problems because you refuse to admit you are male.

How would I stop them saying they were non binary. How would they stop me saying gender is a concept imposed by society that damages both women and men

They can say what they like as can I.
I dont know how many times I have to say I am not interested in gender, other than seeing it as a range of oppressive stereotypes.

Galaxy

No of course they arent. The non binary person of the female sex will experience oppression because of their female sex, they will be impacted by maternity policies etc, non binary people of the Male sex will be more likely to commit particular crimes, not have to take time off work for pregnancy etc. Do you mean if female people have short hair and wear trousers my preconceptions will be challenged, because I have never believed in those stereotypes.

So what you are actually saying is that because someone may at some point require medical services or choose to benefit from a service that depends upon their sex you must be able to know their gender. Why?

I mean that regardless of how someone dresses or presents if they choose to say they are non-binary you should permit them to say so and legally recognise their right to do so.

Rosie51

Glorianny

FarNorth

^However this is not a thread about trans people anyway.

Well, who is it that wants neopronouns?
Isn't it people under the trans umbrella?

It's actually mostly non-binary people, who are simply saying it's none of your business and it simply shouldn't matter to you what gender they are so they choose to use "they".
Nothing to do with trans people really
And something that should be welcomed by anyone choosing to challenge gender norms.

You really should educate Stonewall and other trans organisations because they most definitely include non-binary under the trans 'umbrella'.

www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

Honestly some people either don't have basic English skills or can only read things and apply bias
What it says on Stonewall

Trans is an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, non-binary, or genderqueer.

That means that trans people may use the term non-binary. It does not mean that all non-binary people are trans or that all non-binary people want to be identified with trans people.

Does that help Rosie51?

Who are you calling abusive VS.

No of course they arent. The non binary person of the female sex will experience oppression because of their female sex, they will be impacted by maternity policies etc, non binary people of the Male sex will be more likely to commit particular crimes, not have to take time off work for pregnancy etc. Do you mean if female people have short hair and wear trousers my preconceptions will be challenged, because I have never believed in those stereotypes.

My GD is non binary and uses ‘they ‘. To begin with this caused a lot of confusion as we never knew whether ‘their’ parents were referring to ‘them’ alone or ‘them’ and ‘their ‘ sister.

Glorianny

FarNorth

^However this is not a thread about trans people anyway.

Well, who is it that wants neopronouns?
Isn't it people under the trans umbrella?

It's actually mostly non-binary people, who are simply saying it's none of your business and it simply shouldn't matter to you what gender they are so they choose to use "they".
Nothing to do with trans people really
And something that should be welcomed by anyone choosing to challenge gender norms.

You really should educate Stonewall and other trans organisations because they most definitely include non-binary under the trans 'umbrella'.

www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

Galaxy

In what way am I placing restrictions on someone if I believe that you cant change sex.

But no one is talking about changing sex. Just that you have no right to know what sex or gender they are, Which if you look at it logically is pretty much putting into practice the belief that gender is a restrictive practice that needs to be ignored. If someone is non-binary all your preconceptions of male and/or female behaviour are challenged.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I've never met a religious person who ever told me if I didn't follow their beliefs I could go to hell. I've only read about those people.

But now GC feminists seem to be saying if people don't follow their beliefs they can go to hell.

Which then leads to it being some sort of divinity to be absolutely rude and abnoxious to a huge amount of people just trying to live life happily as good people and anyone defending their right to live life happily as good people.

So really it's not comparable to religion as a whole but more comparable to a religious cult

People who are able to objectively be nasty to others or stand back and enable it because another does not subscribe to their beliefs and is therefore "less" are nothing short of abusive

In what way am I placing restrictions on someone if I believe that you cant change sex.

Doodledog

*If we want a religious analogy it's a bit like me saying I'm an atheist and you saying I have to believe in God because you do, and I can chose between Christianity and Islam, but I have to be one or the other.*

I have just accidentally deleted a longer reply, but will just say that this analogy does not allow for the fact that there are other religions, and that there is an Atheist option too, so doesn't hold up as a comparison.

Are you going to be hostile and insist that we all agree that sex is less important than gender, or that people have a choice in which sex they want to be, just because you believe it?

As I have said before the number of people I meet whose sex I actually have seen real evidence of is tiny, so in everyday life of course sex is less important than gender.

In any case none of this is important when looking at the case for non-binary identities.
I agree about religion not being relevant but then I didn't bring religion into the discussion.

No one has yet explained to me why they have the right to refuse to recognise non-binary identities apart from the fact that they don't believe in them. And as belief has been at the basis of every discriminatory act or regime in history it isn't something I can agree with.

You are quite entitled to believe what you wish, you are not entitle to use that belief to limit or place restrictions on anyone else's life, especially restrictions on their personal identity which causes no harm to anyone else.

If we want a religious analogy it's a bit like me saying I'm an atheist and you saying I have to believe in God because you do, and I can chose between Christianity and Islam, but I have to be one or the other.

I have just accidentally deleted a longer reply, but will just say that this analogy does not allow for the fact that there are other religions, and that there is an Atheist option too, so doesn't hold up as a comparison.

Are you going to be hostile and insist that we all agree that sex is less important than gender, or that people have a choice in which sex they want to be, just because you believe it?

I am not telling anyone to behave in a certain way. You want me to say certain words. It's like asking an atheist to say the lords prayer every day. I am not interested in anyones gender as I have already said.

But surely it is hostile to insist someone must behave the way you want them to and not the way they wish to. As for gender you only assume you know because you have been told that someone is a certain gender. If they refuse to tell you what right have you to insist.
If we want a religious analogy it's a bit like me saying I'm an atheist and you saying I have to believe in God because you do, and I can chose between Christianity and Islam, but I have to be one or the other.

I dont mean that in a hostile way I just mean in the same way I am not that interested in others religious beliefs on a day to day basis.

They can believe what they like . Their sex will remain the same, and the oppression women experience wont change because they label themselves non binary for example.
I am not interested in anyones gender.

Galaxy

Nobody is ignoring them. We hold different beliefs about gender that's all. And we arent going to go away either

This. 😀

Galaxy

Nobody is ignoring them. We hold different beliefs about gender that's all. And we arent going to go away either

So why do you feel you have to know someone's gender? Why can't they be non-binary? How does that conflict with your beliefs?

This is interesting-
In his book “What’s Your Pronoun?” Dennis Baron, an English professor at the University of Illinois, describes a series of attempts to create a nonbinary pronoun. (In 1808, the poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge suggested “it,” which flopped; it is now beginning to have a small moment in the sun.) In all, Mr. Baron identified more than 200 gender-neutral pronouns proposed between the 19th century and the 1970s

www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/style/neopronouns-nonbinary-explainer.html

Nobody is ignoring them. We hold different beliefs about gender that's all. And we arent going to go away either

Neurodivergent people vary in so many ways. Linking a particular problem to any difficulties in life is never helpful. It basically focusses on the condition and not the individual.
Just as there are autistic people who find socialising difficult there are those who don't recognise normal social boundaries and over step them (Listen to Henry Normal about his son Johnnie). So some children may find pronouns difficult and may need help. Denying them that help because of your personal prejudices is just as damaging as any other restrictions you place upon them.

They will meet people who don't want to be referred to as him or her. That's the reality. The earlier they are introduced to the idea and the more positive help they receive to understand the it the more likely they are to adjust.

And yes I do understand that some people may not understand or adjust, that has to be lived with like all the other problems of autism, including non-verbal people. But ignoring or not believing in non-binary people isn't going to make them go away.

FarNorth

^However this is not a thread about trans people anyway.

Well, who is it that wants neopronouns?
Isn't it people under the trans umbrella?

It's actually mostly non-binary people, who are simply saying it's none of your business and it simply shouldn't matter to you what gender they are so they choose to use "they".
Nothing to do with trans people really
And something that should be welcomed by anyone choosing to challenge gender norms.