15 minute cities coming to your area soon

And severely restrict free movement for everyone!

It's that bit about restricting car journeys out of the zones, isn't it? Completely deaf to improving public transport, allowing certain classes of traffic etc. No, it's the 'free movement' of cars that's riling people...

Never mind that people actual like to have local amenities nearby...

Eloethan

It sounds like part of the plotline of the series Years and Years which, as the story went on, showed the introduction of more and more restrictions.

I don't like the sound of it at all. I agree that people should be encouraged to use their cars less often (I believe most car journeys are only for short distances), but I think the idea that you can take charge of people's lives to this extent is worrying.

I think the extension of ULEZ to the outer London boroughs is unfair - and some say it will have an insignificant effect on air pollution. Many people who live in the boroughs more distant from central London do so because they can't afford to live closer. Now they may not be able to use their current cars and cannot afford to buy another one. Obviously, it is better to walk or take public transport but that isn't always a practical option, and it seems very unfair that it is invariably poorer people who, in relative terms, pay the biggest price when such measures are introduced.

I quite like the idea of having cleaner air in cities with safer roads for pedestrians and cyclists and faster routes for those, such as emergency services, who actually need to use inner city roads.

If that's controlling people's lives, bring it on!

Meanwhile, I'd absolutely hate to live somewhere with no facilities within a 15 minute walk and feel for the people who are forced to do so.

MaizieD

^And severely restrict free movement for everyone!^

It's that bit about restricting car journeys out of the zones, isn't it? Completely deaf to improving public transport, allowing certain classes of traffic etc. No, it's the 'free movement' of cars that's riling people...

Never mind that people actual like to have local amenities nearby...

It's "Freeeeeeeeeeedom"!

Freedom to do what the hell I like and bugger everybody else!

AFAIK there's been no serious plan to keep people in "their zone" and forbid travelling outside it (apart from a handful of crackpot conspiracy touts). They do love to build up a hysterical frenzy.

While you're all talking about how to adjust to living in a 15 minutes city, then these will definitely go ahead. What you should be doing is making a noise. Get together and create groups that don't 'consent' to this type of tyrrany.

growstuff

MaizieD

LadyHonoriaDedlock

Why does my head hurt, growstuff? And why are there grey hairs all over the floor?

You can't beat a good conspiracy theory, LadyH

Yeah well! They got a bit bored with the anti-mask stuff, but who would have thought they'd have hijacked a perfectly sound theory, which has been around for years?

Anti-mask, anti-vaxx, anti-EU, anti-woke, anti-immigrant, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-BBC, anti-green, anti-cyclist, anti-traffic-control, anti-21st-century, anti-groupthink (oh the irony!)

Birds of a feather flock together. You'll never see one without the others nearby.

growstuff Freedom to do what the hell I like and bugger everybody else!

The Libertarian philosophy in a nutshell.

Bit difficult for any of those who have to travel work, particularly to out of town areas, ie industrial estates, shopping precincts etc.

Your tolerance on the other hand shines through Lady Honoria. To be honest that rant sounds no different to the conspiracy theorists, not much different.

Another thread that's turned unnecessarily nasty. There seems to be something in the water just now.

It's becoming increasingly impossible for people to understand that people may hold a different view to them. The word semi literate has just been thrown around on another thread. I know quite a lot of people who voted Brexit they have skills that people on here couldnt dream of, and to be honest tend to have more empathy than those who shout at them.

Anti-mask, anti-vaxx, anti-EU, anti-woke, anti-immigrant, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-BBC, anti-green, anti-cyclist, anti-traffic-control, anti-21st-century, anti-groupthink

blimey LadyHonoriaDedlock . thats quite a list there. but i think you forgot NIMBY

LadyHonoria You say: "Anti-mask, anti-vaxx, anti-EU, anti-woke, anti-immigrant, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-BBC, anti-green, anti-cyclist, anti-traffic-control, anti-21st-century, anti-groupthink (oh the irony!)

"Birds of a feather flock together. You'll never see one without the others nearby."

That is a very sweeping statement. It is possible to have doubts about certain issues without being party to the alleged "groupthink" you refer to.

As an example, I did and do have some doubts about the Covid vaccine, and certain traffic control and cycling measures (and I am not a driver). I don't always believe that all of the people in positions of power have everybody's best interests at heart, and I think there is plenty of evidence to substantiate that.

BUT I am most certainly not anti-mask, anti-EU (I voted to remain), anti-woke (I hold the sort of views that are, insultingly in my view, labelled as "woke"), anti-immigrant (mine is a blended family), "anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-trans" (most definitely not), anti-BBC (I watch it more than any other channel and don't disagree with the licence fee) and anti-green (I'm a member of Greenpeace).

One could argue that the majority viewpoint, at least on this thread, is an example of "group think" - especially when the group that assumes it is automatically in the right feels the need to make all sorts of presumptions about a minority of people, simply because some of their views are not in accordance with their own.

Living on the boundaries of outer Paris I certainly had problems when I worked as I only had one car and if smog restrictions were in use, every other day even numbered registrations. I had to use the local backroads, to be able to work even though the public transport system was and still is good, it didn’t fit my needs.
Going to another extreme, when I lived in China, 30 years ago, people had to apply to change regions to live, it left families split for several years.

This would work in London where public transport links are good. Buses are affordable. Tube is OK outside of zone 1 and peak hours, but expensive for that. It makes sense to massively reduce car use in the capital.
But other cities have issues with public transport. Buses in, for example, Oxford and Bristol are expensive. Routes are being cut.
Outside of big conurbations, this won't be implemented. Small cities will struggle without investment.

Sounds very American, where I hear you can’t walk in many areas as the roads are only for traffic. No ‘sidewalks’.
Most British towns are very old and have bad traffic problems because they grew up long before traffic. Travel 15 minutes from where I live in any direction and you’re surrounded by open countryside. You’d have to travel further for most things you need.

Total social engineering and control.

There is talk of this in Edinburgh but it is difficult to see how it can be implemented.

How's about:
banning sales of 4wd vehicles to non rural addresses
Introducing proper school buses electric of course to scoop up pupils,(we had a coach in 60s that scooped up 88+ kids from numerous schools in Manchester and ferried us to anywhere from 10miles out to where we lived in Derbyshire!!parents paid as they'd no cars then and was safer than non existent public transport)
Minibus scheme for teachers and local workers, we also had this at one place j worked at as it was a timber merchants and off any bus routes , worked a treat! Coach for mill folks and minibus for office staff .no t everyone who runs a car actually needs one outside of commuting , I didn't!! But still had to shell out for it so I could get to work....to earn Dosh to pay for? Car!! Amongst other things!!

The 15-minute neighbourhoods idea is the antithesis of America. In America the suburbs where the great majority of the population lives have single-family zoning, That means great swathes of houses all on their bit of land (a homeowners association (HOA) will make sure you keep the grass neatly clipped and don't do anything eccentric and unsightly like growing flowers or vegetables or having curtains of an unapproved color [sic]. There are no shops, they go in commercial zones a lot more than 15 min walk away. Not that you'd be able to walk anyway because as soon as you step away from your own property a cop car is sure to come cruising by to demand that you tell them what you're up to. There are no local schools for your children either, or recreation facilities. Everything has to be accessed by car, which is fine if you are old enough to drive but a disaster for children who have to be driven by a parent to do anything. Certainly no bars or cafés for casual socialisation.

Talk about social control! In the so-called Land of the Free too. I don't think many British Gransnetters would like it very much. It probably suits the American Way but in truth America is culturally very different from Britain.

I'm wondering if a lot of this conversation is at cross purposes. I know a lot of comment I've seen elsewhere online sees the 15-minute neighbourhood in terms of putting people in huge stalinist concrete blocks. I don't see that at all. I see it more in terms of a return to low-density, human-scale communities, urban villages if you like. with everyday shopping and social needs met by local shops, pubs and cafés but nothing to say you can't go further afield for bigger shopping.

Chaitriona

There is talk of this in Edinburgh but it is difficult to see how it can be implemented.

I don't know where you live in Edinburgh, Chaitriona, but a lot of Edinburgh is already there, I don't just mean places like Marchmont or Stockbridge either. I get the kind of 15-minute community feeling I envisage in grittier Gorgie. There are certainly parts of Edinburgh that could do with getting the Gorgie treatment.

I see it more in terms of a return to low-density, human-scale communities, urban villages if you like. with everyday shopping and social needs met by local shops, pubs and cafés but nothing to say you can't go further afield for bigger shopping

The message that comes across is that Planning Officers have got it all completely wrong for the last 50 years and have now realised their mistakes and are backtracking.

The Planners have forced people into cars to get to huge centralised shopping malls and areas with large units housing shops selling everything we need, wreaking havoc on the countryside, hospitals are built out in the countryside, and thousands of local shops and businesses in small towns and villages have been forced to close down. Add into that rising parking charges around small towns which is the final straw for many.
Schools have grown larger, many village primary schools have closed, some secondary schools have thousands of pupils.

All designed by the Planners who decide how we should live.

Already public transport has been reduced which is counter-productive and forces more and more cars on to the roads and isolates many who do not drive.
However, most people who live in small villages and towns have to travel distances to work too.

What will happen to these malls, the areas with huge units such as DIY shops, household goods, supermarkets? Will they be the ghost towns of the future?

Public consultations just pay lip service and are ignored.

I'm not objecting per se but I do ask how much this will cost, what will happen to the huge buildings and malls already there, and will they realise that a better public transport system is the Number One priority to persuade people to leave their car (electric of course) at home?

Yes, sounds idealistic but is it workable?

Better public transport, better road networks and electric cars would be more achievable.

I'm wondering if a lot of this conversation is at cross purposes. I know a lot of comment I've seen elsewhere online sees the 15-minute neighbourhood in terms of putting people in huge stalinist concrete blocks. I don't see that at all. I see it more in terms of a return to low-density, human-scale communities, urban villages if you like. with everyday shopping and social needs met by local shops, pubs and cafés but nothing to say you can't go further afield for bigger shopping.

Ah. Some attempt at accepting that there are different points of view, and anyone not agreeing with your just might not be anti-mask, anti-vaxx, anti-EU, anti-woke, anti-immigrant, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-BBC, anti-green, anti-cyclist, anti-traffic-control, anti-21st-century, anti-groupthink. It might simply be that you see it one way and others see it differently?

The OP, who I'm sure didn't intend to start a thread with such condescending and offensive comments in it, said that you would not be able to use your car more than 100 times per year to leave your zone to go into or cross another zone. To keep control of the use of cars, recognition cameras would monitor vehicle and fines issued to people who use their car to cross zones more than the allotted number of times.

Whether she was correct in this interpretation of the scheme or not (and it's a fair bet that the majority of posters on here are not and never were town planners, so the OP is all we had to go on) this is what people are responding to.

Yes, it's frustrating sometimes when people only read the first post and comment, but that is Gransnet. Also, several posts had been made where people picked up on what one another had said, and commented on that, until a dozen posts in, siope points out that there are two separate schemes being conflated here, which might have turned things round, but her post starts with accusations about 'right wing' interpretations, alienating people and setting up an oppositional tone to the thread. This continued, as more snide comments about ignorance, 'group think' and so on were piled on, with anyone not agreeing that the zones are likely to work (based on the personal experience of the posters) met with scorn and derision such as in the quote above.

This thread has left a nasty taste, and I've lost interest in the scheme now, but if it does become likely, I hope the councils, or whoever gets to implement it employs a decent PR team who listens to concerns and can correct any misunderstandings without condescension and rudeness, or it will never get off the ground.

Well, there are plenty of empty shops waiting for enterprising new business owners here and more each week - if only the Council would reduce the rents and rates 🙂

Doodledog I know about planning officers, I've chaired a planning committee in the past. My aim always was to ensure that developments were on a human scale but also minimised the need for car use. Doing my best to ensure that offices and shopping centres were easily accessible by public transport. It's not always possible when you have the likes of Tesco threatening you with very expensive lawyers if you reject their plans and try to impose conditions on them they don't like. Planning officers are annoying sometimes but they aren't the enemy. Their job is to try to steer a course between the big corporations and the needs of real people without landing the council with a huge legal bill when Tesco or Bellway go to court and win (as they usually do).