Soup throwing again

At last.

That wasn't so hard after all, was it?

The comments are illuminating. Please read them to see what these folk are like.

Actually it had been hard, I couldn't find it at all yesterday. Serendipity had someone quoting this person's tweet appear at the top of my feed when I logged in just now.

Glorianny

I think if you come from a country where LGBTQ people are subjected to high levels of violence you are not going to be happy, or behave entirely rationally, when someone comes int your safe space and starts promoting hatred.

It really isn't rational, is it, to assault someone whose rhetoric you dislike, in a country which has given you refuge, and risk being deported to whence you came.

twitter.com/australianwoma1/status/1642353438221799424

So not in NZ nor the USA. That was all lies.

Sorry the link seems to go funny, sometimes it stays full screen sometimes it reduces to a tiny part, no idea why.

MerylStreep

Namsnanny
scientist anyone
Obviously not the forensic sort 😂

🤣🤣🤣

Thanks Doodledog as I suspected it is the US where health care and treatment largely depends on how much money you have (or your insurance company will provide).
The number of teens having surgery for cosmetic reasons is seriously worrying.
It isn't just a trans issue.
It took about 30 seconds to find - I'm sure you could have done the same, rather than ask someone to do it for you, if you were genuinely concerned about its provenance in relation to the discussion, rather than living in hope of a 'gotcha'.

I agree that the number of teens having cosmetic surgery is worrying, and this, to a large extent is what seems to be happening with 'transitioning'. It is cosmetic, not medical. For that reason, I see the closure of the Tavistock as a good thing. Nobody is likely to find that their condition deteriorates if they have to wait until adulthood to get surgery, and as we can see from the number of detransitioners there are many who change their minds (and probably many more who don't apply for further surgery).

Before condoning mass surgery on children for a hitherto rare psychological condition I would want to see proper evidence for why the numbers have risen so exponentially, and a thorough investigation into whether non-surgical alternatives (probably therapy) would be of benefit, and what is actually meant by 'it's just a feeling', as well as what 'like a woman' means,

I agree that all kinds of cosmetic surgery should be approached with caution in children, other than the covering of scars or corrective surgery for things such as bat ears, which can make a difference to a child's well-being without risking their mental health being further damaged. It's not just a trans issue for me, either.

Everyone's gone crackers.

I was on the point of penning a post about believing that a tweet created by somebody who can't spell "who's", parroting a page from a biased right-leaning source, was probably not the best thing to do, but what's the point.

Isn't this how we ended up with Brexit?

"I saw a tweet, it must be true..."

Doodledog

*Thanks Doodledog as I suspected it is the US where health care and treatment largely depends on how much money you have (or your insurance company will provide).*
The number of teens having surgery for cosmetic reasons is seriously worrying.
It isn't just a trans issue.
It took about 30 seconds to find - I'm sure you could have done the same, rather than ask someone to do it for you, if you were genuinely concerned about its provenance in relation to the discussion, rather than living in hope of a 'gotcha'.

I agree that the number of teens having cosmetic surgery is worrying, and this, to a large extent is what seems to be happening with 'transitioning'. It is cosmetic, not medical. For that reason, I see the closure of the Tavistock as a good thing. Nobody is likely to find that their condition deteriorates if they have to wait until adulthood to get surgery, and as we can see from the number of detransitioners there are many who change their minds (and probably many more who don't apply for further surgery).

Before condoning mass surgery on children for a hitherto rare psychological condition I would want to see proper evidence for why the numbers have risen so exponentially, and a thorough investigation into whether non-surgical alternatives (probably therapy) would be of benefit, and what is actually meant by 'it's just a feeling', as well as what 'like a woman' means,

I agree that all kinds of cosmetic surgery should be approached with caution in children, other than the covering of scars or corrective surgery for things such as bat ears, which can make a difference to a child's well-being without risking their mental health being further damaged. It's not just a trans issue for me, either.

Right let's just ignore the dig trying to say I could have found something if I wanted to and just correct some of the things in this.

Firstly the case in question was in the US where there is no restriction on operations and where significant numbers of teens have plastic surgery.

Secondly the Tavistock could not have advocated or used surgery on under 18s because it is illegal in the UK.

One of the reasons I dislike and oppose all the condemnation of trans issues is that those who insist that they actually care about trans people, but just don't think there are so many of them. and that there is some sort of agenda to eliminate women, consistently use extreme cases to justify their views, often by conflating cases. Such as by pretending the Tavistock ever advocated or used surgery. Clients at 17 were passed to adult gender services where they might or might not decide to have surgery.
There has never been any attempt to condone or to introduce mass surgery on children in the UK.

Not a dig, but an observation. You could have found it, but instead asked Molly to do so. What was the point of that? Also, a dig would have suggested that you were buying time, or passing the buck, or whatever it was - I don't do digs - I just said what I saw.

What is a dig, however, is your comment about 'those who insist that they care about transpeople. . .' The whole 'some people' thing is a dig. It's dishonest and passive aggressive.

I am not 'pretending' anything. I am not an expert on trans issues, and have never claimed to be. I won't always be right in what I say - I don't claim that, either. What I do object to is men in women's spaces, the erosion of women as a sex and womanhood being reduced to 'gender', which is a social construct and as such can mean whatever those who control the language want it to mean, and also to harming children.

Anywhere which has such a massive increase in the numbers of children seeking surgery, counselling, affirmation or anything else should be the subject of a thorough inquiry. Do you agree? And if it is found to be damaging, it should be closed. Do you also agree with that?

I also feel that nobody should be able to treat a child based on 'feelings' that nobody can substantiate. Children are unable to advocate for themselves, so are susceptible to misunderstandings at best and abuse at worst. Do you agree?

Nobody as far as I know has treated children purely on feelings. There has been, and still is a massive lack of provision for child mental health issues. One of the things which happened at the Tavistock was that children being treated were referred to local services for counselling which frequently never happened.
I'd like to see proper provision for all children struggling to cope with health issues.

But I do think you should retract

I see the closure of the Tavistock as a good thing. Nobody is likely to find that their condition deteriorates if they have to wait until adulthood to get surgery, and as we can see from the number of detransitioners there are many who change their minds (and probably many more who don't apply for further surgery).

Before condoning mass surgery on children for a hitherto rare psychological condition....

No one has condoned surgery and the Tavistock never advocated child surgery.

Again before making posts that aren't correct I once again advise you to read the facts in Time To Think, Glorianny.

volver3

Everyone's gone crackers.

I was on the point of penning a post about believing that a tweet created by somebody who can't spell "who's", parroting a page from a biased right-leaning source, was probably not the best thing to do, but what's the point.

Isn't this how we ended up with Brexit?

"I saw a tweet, it must be true..."

Really V3? You see a tweet, it must be true.
I don’t believe that, but if you do . . .

It just like any other stuff you read on social media. It may be true, it may be partially true or it may not be true at all.
And like the stuff you read on social media, the originator of the post, or those responding, have a point they want to make which will fit their POV and will find ‘facts’ to support their post or response. Some of these ‘facts’ may be true, partially true or . . .

Have a lovely evening.

Some people have enough intelligence to discern fact from fiction.

Others, alas.....

Do you need an explanation of Facts vs. Opinions again?

The tavistock administered puberty blockers which were considered to be irreversible but that now seems not to be the case, in about 99% of cases those who were prescribed blockers went on to receive cross sex hormones. They thought it was a harmless pause but it appears there wasnt the data to support this.

Glorianny, do you have insider knowledge of the Tavistock? If not, how do you know what they have advocated? It may be that surgery is not performed on under 18s, but that does not stop it being advocated - in fact, my understanding is that it often is, along with the affirmation that they definitely advocate.

I don't, whatever you may think, want children to suffer, and I do believe that many are suffering as a result of whatever it is that is making so many of them question their sex. I don't believe in so-called 'gender', but I do think that if people wish to live according to norms more usually associated with the opposite sex they should be able to do so. We were, IMO, moving along that road anyway, but then we were told that the only way to step away from the gender norms of our sex was to become the other sex, with no understanding (or, as far as I can see attempts to understand) of any of it means. What is a woman/man? What does it mean to 'feel like a woman/man'? How do you know? All of those things are called 'leading questions' and get ignored, and that's without the utter nonsense of believing that people can go against Nature and change sex. If those questions could be answered, and we could believe that children were asking for something that (a) made sense, and (b) was possible, I might feel differently.

I think if you read the accounts of the whistleblowers they say decisions were influenced by outside organisations in a way that wouldnt happen in other NHS services. Some of those who worked there appear to be very distressed about what happened and I think some of them tried very hard to point out the red flags.

Just to be clear the tavistock referred people for puberty blockers. It was on their recommendation, they didnt do the physical procedure, that's done by an endocrinologist. I realise I used the word administered and that's not accurate, I try as a rule to be careful with words.

Have you listened to this consultant psychiatrist from the Tavistock?
Probably not.

www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor

No one has said children were not damaged. I have simply asked how having no service at all will be of any benefit to the children who are presenting with problems, or their families. To my mind the system that failed children then has only been further depleted. I can't think of any other condition where anyone would celebrate or welcome a reduction in services which left vulnerable children without help or treatment.
It shocks me that anyone would think such a position is at all acceptable.
That people find inaccurate statements about under age operations necessary to justify their views is in my opinion despicable.

Galaxysome accounts say that the endocrinologists were instrumental in driving the use of puberty blockers. I have no doubt that some doctors are sometimes interested in researching and assessing treatments.

I guess that depends on how you are defining 'help' and 'treatment', really.

You are saying that children are damaged, but stopping that damage is somehow 'despicable'? I can't follow that logic, to be honest. Even the most ardent evangelist would usually stop short of advocating damage, particularly to the defenceless, unless they could explain what good could come of it.

IMO it is better that such 'treatment' is put on hold until those 'helping' the children are better able to answer the very basic questions that they persistently avoid.

My professional work is children with learning disabilities and children with autism, there is currently a two year waiting list for assessment for autism in my area, the provision of short break services is severely lacking, etc etc. I can think of a number of services that were shut down because of dangerous practice. I was relieved when those services were closed as they were a risk to children.

Galaxy

My professional work is children with learning disabilities and children with autism, there is currently a two year waiting list for assessment for autism in my area, the provision of short break services is severely lacking, etc etc. I can think of a number of services that were shut down because of dangerous practice. I was relieved when those services were closed as they were a risk to children.

And was there any provision proposed or suggested to replace the shut down services? People seem happy to accept the closure of Tavistock but it was also suggested that 2 regional services be introduced and that isn't happening.
Would you also be relieved about that?

Doodledog

I guess that depends on how you are defining 'help' and 'treatment', really.

You are saying that children are damaged, but stopping that damage is somehow 'despicable'? I can't follow that logic, to be honest. Even the most ardent evangelist would usually stop short of advocating damage, particularly to the defenceless, unless they could explain what good could come of it.

IMO it is better that such 'treatment' is put on hold until those 'helping' the children are better able to answer the very basic questions that they persistently avoid.

The current waiting time for an appointment with the service is 4 years. So children who contacted the service in 2019 are just getting their first appointment.
If that isn't sufficient "holding" time I wonder how long you want

I said using inaccurate information about underage operations was despicable, as there were no underage operations there could be no damage from them.

I think reading the accounts of many many of the children involved they needed a range of support, most of which was not about gender identity, it was mental health support and in some cases social care involvement that was needed. I think it must be almost impossible for them to decide how the new services will 'look' due to lack of follow up, data, research, etc.