Why so much inhumanity these days? I despair.

MayBee70

Maybe it isn’t relevant to this topic ( but I think it is) but it’s more and more important that money is put into education, starting at nursery level. And we must make sure that all children are well fed. Education, education, education.

Absolutely. No child should be going hungry. Whatever the reasons behind it, it is never, ever the fault of the child.

Maybe it isn’t relevant to this topic ( but I think it is) but it’s more and more important that money is put into education, starting at nursery level. And we must make sure that all children are well fed. Education, education, education.

Iam64

MOnica yes fewer children grow up in the type of poverty seem in Victorian days if in the 30’s when the mills here were on half time. But, the difference between good enough parenting and what’s experienced by some is far to great.

Indeed.

And horrid parenting is far too prevalent, worsening I fear.

MOnica yes fewer children grow up in the type of poverty seem in Victorian days if in the 30’s when the mills here were on half time. But, the difference between good enough parenting and what’s experienced by some is far to great.

Engles = Engels

Karl Marx id much of his research for "Das Kapital" in the factories of Manchester owned by his pal Friedrich Engles. His work is full of illuminating vignettes of child labour at the time (mid 19th century). It was common for young children and females to sleep on the floor under the machines which they tended because there was no place for them at home. As such they were frequently sexually abused by the overseer.

I was making the point that how ever many deprived and neglected children we have now, even there are causes for it now that didn't exist before. The proportion of children growing up in such conditions now is still far lower than in the past.

MOnica, I’m not sure I understand the point you’re making. We no longer send children up chimneys, or as with my ancestors, 7 year olds working under the cotton spinning machinery, risking life and limb.
Children growing up with substance dependant parents are usually emotionally and physically neglected. They arrive late, grubby and hungry to school (if the go at all). They’ve not eaten since school dinner the day before. In some areas of high deprivation, this is so frequent, it doesn’t hit the statutory intervention button.

I would imagine each of those scenarios is equally horrific for the child itself...

What is more horrific being neglaected or abused by parents who take drugs, or having to climb, often hot chimneys, at 4 or 5, or work down mines in the dark at 3, or risk being killed by unprotected factory machinery at 7 or 8 because your family are so poor that without your money the family will starve?

I would suggest that the proportion of children killed and injured by the necessity of working or starving probably exceeds those damaged by parental drug taking.

biglouis, you’re right, parents and carers have always subjected children to all manner of abuse. The figure of one child each week killed by parent or step parent has remained the same over decades.
As you sadly experienced, it used to be accepted that many children were hit with fists or belts. That’s no longer socially acceptable and parents may be prosecuted

What I believe is different, is the number of parents who are dependent on drugs and/or alcohol. Services are overwhelmed. The goal posts for intervention get wider by the day. The capacity for violence, cruelty and out of control behaviour when substances feature is ever present

I dont believe that the world is any worse than it used to be. More crime and offences are reported now because it is easier. There are nosy neighbours all too ready to snitch to social services because the kids next door cry a lot. As a child I was often given a slap or a whalloping by my father but then so were my friends. I sometimes went to school with huge bruises on my arms from my father's fists. None of my neighbours or teachers thought to call social services. The family has always been a potentially dark place in which offences might be concealed. This is what turned me off the entire idea of the "family" and so called "family life".

Iam64

Cloughdancer, as a newly qualified sw I remember my manager helping me talk through my concerns about a boy. He told me he once removed a boy of six who had bruises and a broken arm. The boy was seeking shouting to his dad I’ll soon be home dad

That is so true. It seems the worse parents are, the more kids want to love them. I grew up next to a family of 8 children. They weren’t abused but they were ignored and neglected. Father worked long hours so was always in bed when he wasn’t working and the kids had to keep quiet or play outside. Mother had loads of boyfriends and used to be in the pub every night leaving the kids to fend for themselves. Neither of them ever took the kids out or went to school events. They dragged themselves up. My Mum used to have a couple of them in at a time and cook them some chips or give them sandwiches when their Mum was at the pub or Bingo.

Yet when the mother died at a great age, you would have thought she was Mother Teresa!

Cloughdancer, as a newly qualified sw I remember my manager helping me talk through my concerns about a boy. He told me he once removed a boy of six who had bruises and a broken arm. The boy was seeking shouting to his dad I’ll soon be home dad

Good post silverlining48.

I remember working in a primary school where a boy was clearly hungry, unkempt, unwell etc. The school knew his mum was a single parent with a big drug problem. There was a strong feeling that he would be better off away from home as a result. One day he was crying, and the biggest thing he said he was scared about was being taken away from his mum.
I was a relatively inexperienced teaching assistant at the time, so wasn't actively involved, but I've never forgotten this.

Constant criticism of social workers is not helpful, mostly they are doing their best. Decisions about children are not made by just one agency but by multi disciplinary groups of police, health, education and anyone else with knowledge of and involved with the family. Yet it’s only social workers who are blamed.
It’s difficult and stressful work, parents can lie, neighbours do lie and it’s never easy to tell what the truth is.
Children are ideally better with family, because removing them into care doesn’t always have a good outcome.
Families can put on a show, persuade workers they are doing their best. Children are notoriously loyal to their parents and if older do not report problems and if young know nothing different.
Who would be a social worker? Its a thankless job. Yes mistakes happen but it’s dammed if you do and damned if you don’t.

What is really terrible is that a baby Finley death happens EVERY WEEK!

I agree MOnica and Iam64.

Living alone is very hard and hearing how sad the world is , I try not to listen or watch but we are bombarded with disasters wars and awful things . I could cry for the world . I often say its not my place now , it feels too harsh

I agree the news does seem relentlessly depressing. Some if it links to the 24 hour news cycle on radio and tv. I’ve reduced my listening time and watch ch4 often for only 20 minutes so I’m another avoiding being overwhelmed.

Finlay deserves a thread of his own really, no criticism of you Ixion for including him in this one. I listed to the radio as I was driving yesterday, felt tears starting so switched off. I’ve read on line this morning as well as the link in the OP. I’ve seen no reference to the recommendation of his Children’s Guardian. What we know so far, is the local authority took the uncommon step of removal at birth, so the safeguarding issues were identified and it was clear he was at risk of significant harm.
The local authority wanted a long 6 month transition period. Again, pointing to ongoing significant concerns. The judge disagreed, wanting things to move more quickly. If the Judge disagrees with the recommendation of the independent Children’’s Guardian, written reasons are given. The review will indicate whether the Judge was influenced by the CG or went against their recommendation.

These parents are responsible, and that’s where my anger rests. It’s impossible though, not to acknowledge the huge pressures children’s services are under. Case loads too large, little if any preventive, support services and the stage at which intervention happens gets more serious all the time. We can only imagine the heart break felt by Finlay’s foster carers and the social workers involved here. His injuries are beyond horrific. One thing stands out though. If you can’t get in to see a baby on a statutory order, with a child protection plan, you call the police. They’ ll get you in, covid or no covid. And in such a vulnerable child, an assessment by a paediatrician in those circumstances wouldn’t be exceeding reasonable concern

We are bombarded with news, most of it bad.
Apart from a quick flick through the paper (we still get one) every day, plus a look at the BBC news website, I do tend to avoid it. Which is not so easy in this house, since dh is addicted (it doesn’t depress him) so it’s usually on - TV or R4 but during the day at least he’s mostly in his lair (study) and I’m elsewhere.

At least we no longer burn people at the stake or inflict horrific tortures, or confine poverty-stricken people to the workhouse. From my recent hospital ward window I had a very good view of the old workhouse - which previously I hadn’t even known was there.

There is nothing remarkable about the current examples of man's inhumanity to man (or woman).

In fact I would say things are far better than in the past. how many children have been spared terribly lives and deaths because now in society as a whole, we do not accept a parents total rights over their children, mans total domination of his wife.

All these things happened and more so, but were accepted as 'normal'. On the other hand we hanged women for infanticide, children for stealing and sent small boys up chimneys, down mines and under fast moving weaving machines.

We live in an age more compassionate than any it has followed.

ixion I know what you mean but think it’s just we are more aware now with rolling news and tech of all that goes on. No horrible detail is spared.

tickingbird

I have to admit I won’t read about baby Finlay as I struggle to put the thoughts out of my mind. I don’t know what the answer is but if I had my way they’d both forego the right to breed anymore. No sentence will stop such cruelty as they don’t think about that when they’re doing the deed.

I’ll no doubt be accused of inhumanity and Hitler will be mentioned. Don’t bother as I won’t come back on to read the comments and I won’t change my stance on this.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Same here

Smileless2012

Social workers are damned when they take children away from their parent(s) and damned if they don't, or return them to their abusers.

I understand this, I really do and I know there are many excellent, hard working social workers out there who are doing the best they can under the circumstances. However, I've also seen at first hand how things can go badly wrong when they don't do their job properly. If one social work department had communicated with another as they were supposed to, I wouldn't have nearly lost my grandson. Fortunately, he was fine, but he did have to live with us for two years while they bent over backwards to accommodate the person who could so easily have ended his life.