To me......being called 'woke' is a compliment

NanaDana

Mollygo

And neither the Romans nor the Vikings imposed restrictions on what could be grown, what could be bought or who people could sell to or buy from.
Sorry, you might have been alive then to actually know that. I’m afraid I wasn’t.

It's also total tosh, Mollygo, as the Romans in particular strictly controlled all grain grown in the Empire, notably in Egypt, North Africa and Sicily. The issue of grain to the populace was then used as a measure of social control, based on dependency. They also imposed a sophisticated and effective system of taxation, the four main sources being a cattle tax, a land tax, a tax on the profits of any profession, and a customs tax on all imports and exports. Ill-informed, I'm afraid, and just another attempt to infer that exploitation was very much the sole prerogative of the "evil" British Empire. Such a silly argument, which simply underlines how ignorance can become the Mother of targeted intolerance.

If you can't understand the difference between taxation, the implementation of controls on the supply of a basic agricultural foodstuff and the acquisition of land to grow cash crops which are then exported to the benefit of the occupying power then you totally fail to understand how the British Empire operated. Of course exploitation wasn't the sole prerogative of the British Empire. The Americans were very good at it, and the continuing poverty of countries like Haiti is evidence of that.
But the bringing of the Romans and Vikings was in fact just an attempt to divert the discussion. No matter how they behaved it is the behaviour of the British and the effects their empire had and is still having which really matters. And all the excuses about poverty stricken ancestors, the enclosure act, and the accusations of DianeAbbott history don't change what was done, what is still being done and this country's responsibilities.
I notice no one has commented about the present situation where the man who will be crowned on Saturday is head of the biggest tax havens in the world which are British Overseas Territories. These are still regarded by the UN as colonised states. So the British Empire isn't a thing of the past

Mollygo

And neither the Romans nor the Vikings imposed restrictions on what could be grown, what could be bought or who people could sell to or buy from.
Sorry, you might have been alive then to actually know that. I’m afraid I wasn’t.

It's also total tosh, Mollygo, as the Romans in particular strictly controlled all grain grown in the Empire, notably in Egypt, North Africa and Sicily. The issue of grain to the populace was then used as a measure of social control, based on dependency. They also imposed a sophisticated and effective system of taxation, the four main sources being a cattle tax, a land tax, a tax on the profits of any profession, and a customs tax on all imports and exports. Ill-informed, I'm afraid, and just another attempt to infer that exploitation was very much the sole prerogative of the "evil" British Empire. Such a silly argument, which simply underlines how ignorance can become the Mother of targeted intolerance.

And neither the Romans nor the Vikings imposed restrictions on what could be grown, what could be bought or who people could sell to or buy from.
Sorry, you might have been alive then to actually know that. I’m afraid I wasn’t.

I think the point is that the people being exploited had no say in any of that though. Yes, they had a job because of cotton being imported from slave plantations, or whatever in the other examples, but suggesting that they should be glad of that is insensitive to say the least, and playing Top Trumps with suffering even more so. As I said upthread, the millworkers' grandparents may have farmed common land before the exploiters enclosed it.

All of the examples are of the rich and powerful exploiting the poor and powerless, and creating better opportunities for the descendants of the powerless should, IMO, be paid for by the powerful.

Glorianny. Definitely straight out of the Diane Abbott book of history. Your agenda is entirely focussed on demonising the British Empire, to the exclusion of all else. I have already said that the B.E. is most certainly guilty of many sins, but they are in good company, world-wide. Check out the history of such countries as the African Kingdom of Dahomey (now loosely defined by Benin), the wealth of which for over two centuries, until the mid 1800's, was entirely based on the sale of their own people into slavery. There are so many more examples I could quote, but I doubt that you are prepared to look outside your British Empire bubble, so I'll leave it there, as further discussion seems pointless. Turn the binoculars around and at least try to see the bigger picture...

Mollygo

Glorianny
The Vikings and the Romans no longer exist and in fact neither of those societies was as acquisitive or took as much from the countries they occupied as the British Empire did, something this country is still very much benefitting from.
Though this was possibly not the view of those people from whom the Vikings and Romans invaded.
I wasn’t alive then, but I suspect no apologies were forthcoming at the time, or even later. The countries from which the Vikings and Romans came, still exist. The population descended from the same Vikings and Romans, who invaded.
I don’t disagree on things in the past were
wrong, but dismissing any of them that you don’t think are important is just the same as some people are doing today.

The point is Mollygo that the British Empire still exists in the Overseas territories which are the world's biggest tax havens.
And neither the Romans nor the Vikings imposed restrictions on what could be grown, what could be bought or who a country could sell to, or buy from. That was how the BE made its fortunes.

maddyone your family history is like most people's threaded through with poverty.
So I will just ask these questions
If the mill was a cotton mill where did the cotton come from they processed and where was the finished product sold?
If your great grandmother baked teacakes was the flour she used imported from Ireland, where people were starving to death because the potato harvest failed, and the grain they grew was all exported to England?
How was the grammar school your grandfather couldn't go to funded?
Acknowledging that the poverty our ancestors underwent was not the same as the starvation and death the British caused elsewhere takes nothing away from them.
And the real problem is that the vestiges of the British Empire remain. It has been described as a Financial Empire rather than a geographical one. It is one which still perpetuates the gap between the very rich and the poor. Not recognising that is the saddest thing.

Yes, Britain benefited from the Empire. I don’t think anyone is disputing that, but I doubt very much that my twelve year old grandmother, as she walked along the cobbles at six o clock in the morning on her way to the local mill to begin her shift, wearing her clogs and with her shawl around her shoulders, I doubt very much that she pondered on her good fortune because Britain had an Empire. I doubt that my great grandmother, widowed with four young children to support, as she took in other people’s washing and baked tea cakes to sell, rather than move into the work house, I doubt she pondered on her good fortune because Britain had an Empire. I doubt that my grandmother’s older brother, who gained a scholarship to the grammar school but couldn’t go despite the scholarship, because his mother couldn’t afford to buy the uniform, I doubt very much that he pondered on his good fortune because Britain had an Empire. This was the reality for my grandmother’s family, in a little village in Derbyshire, around the turn of the century. I learnt this at my grandmother’s knee. I heard the stories so often that they are ingrained into my brain, as I also heard the stories about how two of her brothers were killed in WW1. This is my history. Part of it anyway. There’s more about poverty and tears but I’ll leave it there.

NanaDana

Glorianny

The Vikings and the Romans no longer exist and in fact neither of those societies was as acquisitive or took as much from the countries they occupied as the British Empire did, something this country is still very much benefitting from.
The wholesale destruction of local agriculture in order to grow cash crops, the mining of valuable resources such as gold and diamonds, and creating a closed market which meant these countries had to purchase British goods, brought prosperity to this country and poverty to the countries we occupied. It is absolute nonsense to claim there were no benefits to the British people from this. Apart from the charitable institutions set up in this country the wealth which enabled free schooling in Victorian times came as a direct result of these policies.
Acknowledging our responsibility is a beginning.
Then those still holding vast wealth and still involved in the administration of British territories like the RF could begin to make reparation

And your point is?... And where did: "It is absolute nonsense to claim there were no benefits to the British people from this" come from? Who claimed otherwise? Certainly not me. Not sure that you've understood anything that I've written, and strangely, you appear to be focussed entirely on the sins (and yes, they are many) of the British Empire, to the exclusion of all else. Diane Abbott book of history? Perhaps.

The British Empire was the biggest, the most exploitative and the closest in history. The slave trade was being discussed which the BE was involved in. You introduced the Romans and the Vikings, and although there was a Roman Empire it was by no means as exploitative as the BE. The Vikings didn't have an empire. They were largely adventurous, piratical and settlers. They settled and ruled different places, they stole and raped but they did not exploit a land or country to benefit another country or people.
The British Empire did just that. Its influence still endures in British Overseas Territories which are the biggest tax havens in the world and enable tax evasion on a huge scale. So knowing about what was done, how that still impacts on the world and asking for action isn't focussing on anything to the exclusion of all else, or just anyone's book of history. Because it is happening today. www.icrict.com/icrict-in-thenews/2022/5/24/britain-is-officially-the-biggest-tax-evasion-enabler-on-the-planet

History rewritten.

Glorianny
The Vikings and the Romans no longer exist and in fact neither of those societies was as acquisitive or took as much from the countries they occupied as the British Empire did, something this country is still very much benefitting from.
Though this was possibly not the view of those people from whom the Vikings and Romans invaded.
I wasn’t alive then, but I suspect no apologies were forthcoming at the time, or even later. The countries from which the Vikings and Romans came, still exist. The population descended from the same Vikings and Romans, who invaded.
I don’t disagree on things in the past were
wrong, but dismissing any of them that you don’t think are important is just the same as some people are doing today.

Glorianny

The Vikings and the Romans no longer exist and in fact neither of those societies was as acquisitive or took as much from the countries they occupied as the British Empire did, something this country is still very much benefitting from.
The wholesale destruction of local agriculture in order to grow cash crops, the mining of valuable resources such as gold and diamonds, and creating a closed market which meant these countries had to purchase British goods, brought prosperity to this country and poverty to the countries we occupied. It is absolute nonsense to claim there were no benefits to the British people from this. Apart from the charitable institutions set up in this country the wealth which enabled free schooling in Victorian times came as a direct result of these policies.
Acknowledging our responsibility is a beginning.
Then those still holding vast wealth and still involved in the administration of British territories like the RF could begin to make reparation

And your point is?... And where did: "It is absolute nonsense to claim there were no benefits to the British people from this" come from? Who claimed otherwise? Certainly not me. Not sure that you've understood anything that I've written, and strangely, you appear to be focussed entirely on the sins (and yes, they are many) of the British Empire, to the exclusion of all else. Diane Abbott book of history? Perhaps.

The Vikings and the Romans no longer exist and in fact neither of those societies was as acquisitive or took as much from the countries they occupied as the British Empire did, something this country is still very much benefitting from.
The wholesale destruction of local agriculture in order to grow cash crops, the mining of valuable resources such as gold and diamonds, and creating a closed market which meant these countries had to purchase British goods, brought prosperity to this country and poverty to the countries we occupied. It is absolute nonsense to claim there were no benefits to the British people from this. Apart from the charitable institutions set up in this country the wealth which enabled free schooling in Victorian times came as a direct result of these policies.
Acknowledging our responsibility is a beginning.
Then those still holding vast wealth and still involved in the administration of British territories like the RF could begin to make reparation

Museums already loan exhibits to each other

Like with the museums, if every museum in the world gave back all the artefacts to all the various countries they came from then every museum would only be able to display things that came from their own country.We’d all lose the wonderful and educational things from the rest of the world.A sharing out is the best way so that all can see them.

Callistemon - I think the name change from Brownies to Embers just happened this year. Personally I had a bit of an eye-roll, but do understand that with approx 30% of Canadians with non- European heritage, not very many would know of any reference to a British fokelore creature.

NanaDana - my DH and I were having this same conversation the other evening, when the story of the Koh-i-noor diamand was on the news, and the fight over rightful ownership. How far back can we go to make reparations or apologies? History can be horrible sometimes, but can we be help personally responsible?

Yes, NanaDana, that's pretty much what i was getting at.

Glorianny

JaneJudge

I find it 'interesting' that there are no statues of the Lords who started the anti slavery campaign in the 18th century and I also find it positive that we look at history objectively now. Even the ships that imported exotic woods for furniture making were full of imported humans

There's a statue of William Wilberforce and a Wilberforce museum in Hull

I think there are several statues to those who championed the cause of abolishing slavery up and down the land.I guess Mr Google will tell us.

Brilliant NanaDana 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Is there some sort of Statute of Limitations as regards reparations? I'm thinking that perhaps Italy might be approached as regards all that bother with the Romans, or perhaps we should give Denmark a nudge about those pillaging Vikings. And we could always point the finger at France about what those Normans did to our Saxon way of life. Mind you, we could be in big trouble ourselves if all those who were once part of the much exploited British Empire put their claims in too. Is there a single Nation on earth who, at one time or another, hasn't invaded/exploited/ defeated in war/colonised/even enslaved another? And what about the generations of internal, class-based subjugation and cynical exploitation of serfs/workers by the so-called ruling classes? The possibilities for reparations are virtually endless... and untangling the threads of who has and has not benefited from all this so far down the line has about as much point to it as continuing the arcane intellectual speculation as to how many angels can fit onto a pin head.. IMHO...

Sorry - cross posted. My post was in reply to Glorianny.

Yes, I realise that, but (to me) that means that governments making reparations is fair enough, but individuals, not so much. I just don't know how you can separate out things like those I mentioned, such as free health and education from, say, a public school education that may have been afforded because the family benefited from exploiting others in the past. It's all intertwined.

Also, mill workers may well have been peasant farmers if not for the enclosure acts, living a far healthier life, with more freedom for their families. Many governments have legislated to exploit UK workers as well as those abroad.

Doodledog

volver3

That's a fair comment.

But they could if necessary.

Well, they could if they have the resources of Who Do You Think You Are, or something . The patrilineal surname system means that many women are all but untraceable unless by someone very determined. A great-great-great aunt might have had three slaves but if she married after inheriting them and passed her money to daughters, who would know they were relatives? Would it even occur to people to try to find out?

It's never crossed my mind that I should, really. I think it's unlikely, as in living memory none of my family had any money or assets, but it's possible. Suppose I did find out, should I be expected to pay up and apologise? I haven't inherited a penny and other than being lucky to be born in a country with free healthcare and education, I certainly haven't lived on the fruits of the labours of others.

I've got most of my ancestral lines back to 1833 and beyond, men and women. I don't have WDYTYA? at my disposal

When the database came out, I checked it. No slave ownership.

I'm not saying anyone should individually pay up and apologise. But I think its important to know.

It's never crossed my mind that I should, really. I think it's unlikely, as in living memory none of my family had any money or assets, but it's possible. Suppose I did find out, should I be expected to pay up and apologise? I haven't inherited a penny and other than being lucky to be born in a country with free healthcare and education, I certainly haven't lived on the fruits of the labours of others.
But much of the industry and commerce since the 16th century depended on us acquiring as much as possible from other countries. Mill workers in Lancashire were poorly paid and over worked but they had their jobs because cotton was imported and processed here, with the British Empire imposing restrictions on manufacturing in the colonies. The financial success of this country was built on exploitation and everyone benefitted if only in very small ways.

'Past tense of wake.'
Or am I being flippant ?