To me......being called 'woke' is a compliment

But surely the exploitation and the financial rewards of the British Empire extended far beyond actual slavery. It included the removal of natural assets, the acquisition of valuables and the exploitation of many peoples in many different countries. It would be almost impossible to make complete reparation for what was done. But we could begin. We might begin by dealing with the British Overseas Territories which are the last vestiges of the British Empire and 3 of which are Tax Havens which are proving difficult to deal with. Head of these is of course our own King Charles 111.

volver3

That's a fair comment.

But they could if necessary.

Well, they could if they have the resources of Who Do You Think You Are, or something . The patrilineal surname system means that many women are all but untraceable unless by someone very determined. A great-great-great aunt might have had three slaves but if she married after inheriting them and passed her money to daughters, who would know they were relatives? Would it even occur to people to try to find out?

It's never crossed my mind that I should, really. I think it's unlikely, as in living memory none of my family had any money or assets, but it's possible. Suppose I did find out, should I be expected to pay up and apologise? I haven't inherited a penny and other than being lucky to be born in a country with free healthcare and education, I certainly haven't lived on the fruits of the labours of others.

That's a fair comment.

But they could if necessary.

volver3

^Most people wouldn't have a clue if a long-dead ancestor was one of these people^

There's a list.

www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/project/details/

Yes, but my point is how many people would know about the list, and be able to trace back an ancestor to see if they are on it?

Thanks Doodledog.
An apology, however heartfelt, is just words. How much value would we place on an apology from those benefitting from creating or using slavery now if it didn’t stop it?
The ring-fenced funding would certainly help those rescued, and could be provided not just by those DD’s mentions, but by those responsible for current slavery.

Most people wouldn't have a clue if a long-dead ancestor was one of these people

There's a list.

www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/project/details/

joycerousselot123

So totally agree plus if the UK had to pay reparations to everyone they ever conquered, it would have to start shelling out to all +the 90% of the countries of the world they have invaded, it would overshadow Brexit miseries by far !

Yes, and (to me, anyway) it just wouldn't ring true if someone apologised in 2023 for what their great+ grandfather did hundreds of years ago. I can see how someone could be ashamed of the behaviour of their ancestors, but how can you separate out how far their own, modern, financial situation is a result of slavery - people bought land with the proceeds, and employed other workers who would also be exploited. Yes, generations of privilege (in the pure sense of the word) is going to be a big leg up, but we will never know whether someone would have made it on their own or not.

How many people even know what their family's links are? David Olusoga did a series about people linked to slavery and it wasn't only the very wealthy who had slaves. People of modest means could be left small numbers of enslaved people in wills, and never set foot on plantations, but still get dividends (or equivalent) of money from their sale or labour. Most people wouldn't have a clue if a long-dead ancestor was one of these people, and how would it benefit anyone if they apologised now?

I absolutely believe that significantly more 'establishment' wealth should be diverted into ensuring that anyone whose life chances have been limited by exploitation gets opportunities to redress that balance. A ring-fenced fund made up of inheritance taxes from the very rich would be a good idea, as it is not just slave owners who should pay reparations, but also factory, mine and mill owners who exploited workers and built fortunes on their labour, and the descendants of the workers in those areas can also still be disadvantaged as a result. That's not comparing life as a mill worker with that of an enslaved person, but recognising that disadvantage is multi-faceted, and it might stop people saying 'so much for white privilege' so often, too.

UK Brownies (called 'Rosebuds' for their first year 1914 would probably be considered 'woke' these days since : House-elves are clearly inspired by the English and Scottish legend of brownies, sprite-like creatures that help out with cooking and cleaning in the households they are connected to.
So, not house-wives (female partners who refuse to go out -work) but in-house-slaves !

So totally agree plus if the UK had to pay reparations to everyone they ever conquered, it would have to start shelling out to all +the 90% of the countries of the world they have invaded, it would overshadow Brexit miseries by far !

JaneJudge

I find it 'interesting' that there are no statues of the Lords who started the anti slavery campaign in the 18th century and I also find it positive that we look at history objectively now. Even the ships that imported exotic woods for furniture making were full of imported humans

There's a statue of William Wilberforce and a Wilberforce museum in Hull

It was a terrible time which spreads into all sorts of areas. It can't be undone, but I think that honouring those who spearheaded or profited from it is inappropriate. I'm not sure what I think about the descendants being held responsible, but it seems to me very disrespectful to have statues of people like Colston these days.

I find it 'interesting' that there are no statues of the Lords who started the anti slavery campaign in the 18th century and I also find it positive that we look at history objectively now. Even the ships that imported exotic woods for furniture making were full of imported humans

That’s interesting Rosie. I haven’t heard the term ‘colour coded’ before - can you explain please?

Allsorts, I don’t think that being aware of injustice necessarily leads to civil disorder. When people are angry, of course, that is a possibility, and I can understand the fury of those whose ancestors were enslaved at having to walk past statues of men who were famous because they profited from slavery. Statues are erected to honour people, and whatever the views of the time it happened, slavery is not honourable. Yes, some spent some of that profit on good works, but that doesn’t negate their bad ones. Nobody is trying to ‘rewrite history’ by saying that these people didn’t exist - they are saying that yes, they existed, but they don’t deserve to be honoured. Think the statue of Saddam in Iraq, or the ones of Lenin in the USSR. But that’s another thread, I know. All the same, wherever we sit on the spectrum of ‘woke’ to fast asleep doesn’t affect the likelihood of us becoming lawless.

GagaJo The police and racists are a threat to people of colour. Aren't they entitled to feel safe on our streets too? so my white policeman son who puts up with the most vile behaviour at times, married to a "person of colour" and with mixed race children, deserves everything he gets? My daughter-in-law disassociates herself from all the colour coded bigots who she feels patronises people like her.

I didn't realise the name had changed over there, CanadianGran but that rather ties in with what someone who gave us a talk on Guiding today said - world Guiding it has changed to become 'more woke', she said.

CanadianGran

Like many words, it has evolved over time and can be seen by some to be an insult. Too bad, because I think the original meaning of 'be awake to', or 'be aware of' situations involving racism is good usage. At least that is the way I interpret it.

As for Brownies, here the name has changed to Embers. Times change... I think most people don't know the fokelore meaning of brownie, especially in Canada or America where we are more culturally diverse. I have fond memories of being in Brownies, and I'm sure many more girls with have good memories of being Embers, or Sparks.

Well I don't know what meaning has been put on "Brownie" over in North America, but here in the UK Brownie folk are mythical small woodland creatures like elves or fairies, who help people, so it is an apt name for young children who do good deeds.

If Brownie has been taken over to mean something else, that's yet another takeover bid of our language. It's presumably only a problem to those who have decided to change it and don't understand the meaning.

Other meaning - rather nice squares of chocolatey cake.

Allsorts

. Pulling down statues, anti social behaviour, not caring that those violent actions incite some people to violence. like all hooligans they should be heavily fined and made to put right any damage they I cause. Hit their pockets as the damage they do hits ours.Name and shame. The rest of us are entitled to feel safe on our streets and treat others as you would like to be treated, which I do and the majority of people.

Very mixed messages in there.

People pulling down statues are no risk to people going peaceably about their lives. As a society, we shouldn't celebrate a racist past with out dated reverence paid to people who have contributed to the suffering of others.

The police and racists are a threat to people of colour. Aren't they entitled to feel safe on our streets too?

. Pulling down statues, anti social behaviour, not caring that those violent actions incite some people to violence. like all hooligans they should be heavily fined and made to put right any damage they I cause. Hit their pockets as the damage they do hits ours.Name and shame. The rest of us are entitled to feel safe on our streets and treat others as you would like to be treated, which I do and the majority of people.

Like many words, it has evolved over time and can be seen by some to be an insult. Too bad, because I think the original meaning of 'be awake to', or 'be aware of' situations involving racism is good usage. At least that is the way I interpret it.

As for Brownies, here the name has changed to Embers. Times change... I think most people don't know the fokelore meaning of brownie, especially in Canada or America where we are more culturally diverse. I have fond memories of being in Brownies, and I'm sure many more girls with have good memories of being Embers, or Sparks.

VS, which other thread, and what is being directed at you? I am lost. My Snowflake poem was written ages ago, and put the case for and against people who are accused of being such. I don't know if your 'not a poem not written by you' was meant to belittle it, but it was just a bit of fun.

No, I see exactly what is happening

And I'm always happy to be direct about it

Bringing animosity to me on another thread for absolutely no reason... Again... And with the clique too

Very playground but I don't play silly games

VioletSky

Predictable undertones lol

Yours?

FannyCornforth

Re ‘snowflake’
Its common usage predates ‘woke’.
I respect others understanding of the word, but for me I understood it to mean someone who lacks robustness and unable to debate anything.
Also ‘I’m so unique and special’; yes, we all are, petal 😉

Yes Fanny. A good explanation.

Predictable undertones lol

I understood you perfectly Mollygo.