Drag Queens

Yes, Freya, and my concern is that this is going further down the road of 'if you don't conform to rigid views of so-called 'gender' then you must be trans, and anyone who is concerned about this must be a reactionary homophobic (?) bigot.

Wyllow3

But I don't see the women in the photos as "Exposing children to exaggerated and sexualised representations of women" but "dressing up" and would be sad if girls felt they couldn't "Dress up" as boys or vice versa.

I wouldn't put a Ru Paul there! Looking across cultures there is an incredible amount of ritualised dressing up. There is a stage culture in our own culture of women dressing as men, suit, top hat, moustache et al. Are we to take away all imagination, fun and possibilities away? To me its a dangerous kind of "Banning".

Why would you think girls wouldn't have the imagination, or boys for that matter to dress up in dresses, or whatever they choose to play out there childish dreams, we don't need the trans lobby to give them permission to do so. It's was always the best playtime with my kids and theirs. Again a minority claiming something as their own, when it most decidedly is not.

Willow there’s a vast difference between girls dressed as men or vice versa in say a Shakespearian play or even the original type of dame in a panto these drag artists have huge eyelashes huge lips huge falling out bosoms and bums usually very sexualised clothing and demolish any type of genuine acting They are taking the p out of womanhood and they are taking the p out of genuine trans women

Who is the head master or mistress in these schools because basically I wouldn’t want them near my children

I wouldn't put a Ru Paul there!

What's the difference between Ru Paul and a drag artist who you think would be suitable to read to children? And on what basis are you making that difference?

This is not about banning - it is about thinking about what (and why) something is appropriate to present to children. Mrs Doubtfire, or Twelfth Night are very different from The Rocky Horror Picture Show or Priscilla Queen of the Desert (both of which I have seen live and thoroughly enjoyed, incidentally).

As I said earlier, a transwoman reading The Gruffalo is different from a drag queen reading about 'hips going sway sway sway', isn't it?

.site= listening

Why don’t they just have people reading to the children who are average sort of people? Are they trying to make some sort of point and using children to do it? I have an uneasy feeling that this is exploitative and political and as such I would oppose it. In fact I would not have encouraged any of my children to go to this. They are supposed to be .site I got to stories, not looking at someone who is trying to get attention.

In theatre in our won culture there is a long tradition - before women were allowed on the stage - of men taking womens parts. Trying to dress not as pantomime dames but as women for Shakespeares plays. Was this horribly dangerous?

The necessary point is that its not presented or intended as propaganda but as breadth of imagination and overseen as such.

But I don't see the women in the photos as "Exposing children to exaggerated and sexualised representations of women" but "dressing up" and would be sad if girls felt they couldn't "Dress up" as boys or vice versa.

I wouldn't put a Ru Paul there! Looking across cultures there is an incredible amount of ritualised dressing up. There is a stage culture in our own culture of women dressing as men, suit, top hat, moustache et al. Are we to take away all imagination, fun and possibilities away? To me its a dangerous kind of "Banning".

I totally agree about ‘blackface’ Doodledog - ‘woman face’

I think everyone thinks they are taking a middle line, though . It's a bit like thinking alcoholics are people who drink more than ourselves, or extremists as people who feel more strongly than we do. I am, of course, perfectly reasonable, and represent the 'common sense' point of view, whilst those who don't share m concerns are lackadaisical, and those who feel more strongly than me are tub-thumping bores .

I brought up blackface, Beetlejuice. I definitely think it is significant that this was ignored by supporters of drag, as I see both as satirising people just for being themselves (as opposed to for being deserving of satire). Exposing children to exaggerated and sexualised representations of women (with the implication that this is 'normal') is no different from showing people of colour in generalised and dehumanised ways, and is equally dangerous.

As for the idea that opposing drag equates to a desire to reintroduce Section 28 - words fail me. Why does any discussion of so-called 'gender' have to bring in homophobia? Sexuality and gender are not the same thing.

If a transwoman wanted to read to children in the same way as any parent/author/professional storyteller I would have no problem with it. A drag queen doing it is not the same - in fact drag queens parody transwomen.

Beetlejuice

^Threads descend into arguments with you instead of being about the topic at hand, people get bored and leave, and the subjects don’t get discussed properly^

Yes, I think that's the plan actually. Distract, divert and derail and then the thread either fizzles out or gets taken down. Perhaps best to ignore such tactics and focus only on contributions that bring something positive to the discussion.
Someone, not sure who, drew parallels between drag queen and black face. I've thought about that and have to agree that this is a valid point. Back in the 60s, tv shows such as the Black & White Minstrels were enormously popular but, due to recognition that parodying the physical attributes and characteristics of black men (because it was mainly the men who were black faced) was neither funny nor acceptable, that ended. And yet here we are, in 2023, with a tv show like Ru Paul's Drag Race, which parodies the physical attributes and characteristics of women. Parodying, and overtly sexualising women, is however, acceptable apparently.

Excellent post Beetlejuice

Un the guardian article that I requested and was quoted, the photographs of the people actually reading - in libraries, where their is a choice to go to - didn't alarm me greatly - as children we had a dressing up box and dressed as all sorts - the people reading were not OTT sexualised like we see on TV's adult shows.

I know we've been referring to cats given recent events, but why not have an animal reading etc etc.

I'm taking a middle path as ever, and don't think we should mess with nursery rhymes.

To me its another thing that its not whether its done but how its done that is significant.

Threads descend into arguments with you instead of being about the topic at hand, people get bored and leave, and the subjects don’t get discussed properly

Yes, I think that's the plan actually. Distract, divert and derail and then the thread either fizzles out or gets taken down. Perhaps best to ignore such tactics and focus only on contributions that bring something positive to the discussion.
Someone, not sure who, drew parallels between drag queen and black face. I've thought about that and have to agree that this is a valid point. Back in the 60s, tv shows such as the Black & White Minstrels were enormously popular but, due to recognition that parodying the physical attributes and characteristics of black men (because it was mainly the men who were black faced) was neither funny nor acceptable, that ended. And yet here we are, in 2023, with a tv show like Ru Paul's Drag Race, which parodies the physical attributes and characteristics of women. Parodying, and overtly sexualising women, is however, acceptable apparently.

Np No

Blondiescot

Norah

Sparklefizz

Why are drag queens being booked to read to children in libraries, schools etc? What is the point? I genuinely don't understand.

If it's to be more inclusive, surely it would be better to ask little people like Ellie Simmonds, people who are deaf, etc ... ie. people who have a "condition" rather than people who just like to dress up?

I've no idea.

I'd imagine more children begin attending Christian schools - no unnecessary lessons about anal sex, no cats, no drag queens.

Oh great, let's just go back to the days of Section 28!

Np. I've no desire for section 28. No need for cats, rubbish sex lessons, or drag queens in school lessons either.

Thank you for the eggshell walking Doodledog @8.23.
I’d forgotten about DARVO, but I can see how clearly it is evidenced in posters who use the technique.
Well put Dickens @8.51.
Innocent and naive for me doesn’t conjure up a person who knows anything about the subject in question.

Norah

Sparklefizz

Why are drag queens being booked to read to children in libraries, schools etc? What is the point? I genuinely don't understand.

If it's to be more inclusive, surely it would be better to ask little people like Ellie Simmonds, people who are deaf, etc ... ie. people who have a "condition" rather than people who just like to dress up?

I've no idea.

I'd imagine more children begin attending Christian schools - no unnecessary lessons about anal sex, no cats, no drag queens.

Oh great, let's just go back to the days of Section 28!

VioletSky

Why shouldn't drag queens read to children?

No one is forced to attend

Why shouldn't drag queens read to children?

Are you as innocently naive as that question indicates that you are?

Drag culture is highly sexualised and subversive. It is adult entertainment in the true sense of the phrase. Beyond the comprehension of small children.

Drag queens do not simply sit down in the library to read an age-appropriate story book from the library shelves; they have tailored 'story-time' to introduce young minds to the sub-culture of drag - they are challenging heteronormative society. In the adult world, that is fine - how we organise the society we live in should always be open to debate. Indoctrinating young minds before they are capable of understanding such concepts is what people are objecting to.

We have discussed the context in which a drag queen reads to children but have not discussed the location. What about the head teacher who is inviting the drag queen into the school? What about the parents who are sending their children to that school? What about the children who may come from different ethnic backgrounds who may have other feelings about who reads to their children? All these points need to be aired to get a clear 360 degree picture of what is actually going on. What effect does it have on children if they are read to by a drag queen? Or removed from the classroom because their parents don't approve? Which age group is being affected? So, what I would have done was to explain to my child/grandchild in the simplest of terms that this 'reader' was show biz like panto or showtime thus wearing sparkly clothing. Where I would have drawn the line was on the content of the story and on the attire the 'reader' was wearing. If in line with common decency fine, if of a crude nature, then I would have gone to the head and board of governors and had something to say.

Sparklefizz

Why are drag queens being booked to read to children in libraries, schools etc? What is the point? I genuinely don't understand.

If it's to be more inclusive, surely it would be better to ask little people like Ellie Simmonds, people who are deaf, etc ... ie. people who have a "condition" rather than people who just like to dress up?

I've no idea.

I'd imagine more children begin attending Christian schools - no unnecessary lessons about anal sex, no cats, no drag queens.

I didn’t know that you were dyslexic VS.
That must help you with teaching phonics.
I have dyscalculia (only recently discovered) and I realise that it made me a very good teacher of numeracy to children who struggled with it.
I couldn’t cope at all with the bright maths kids though!

Staceyann I’ve been on here since I was 48 (3 years ago), but then again, I’ve got a lot of time on my hands.

Obviously it’s everyone’s prerogative to be on this site or not, but I think when I was 48 (almost 30 yrs ago!) , teaching, and with young children at home, it’s the last place I’d have time for, or choose to be.

Perhaps the drag queens (if that’s what they are I think the drag of today is overly grotesque and has moved into another level) should read their stories to cats identifying as humans 😂

VioletSky

I better go to work

I'm identifying as transparent for the rest of the day

My pronouns are "who" and "where"

In my honest opinion and writing as my authentic self is this not attention seeking in the same way as cats and moon?