Drag Queens

So those poor little ones who never see a book at home or get read too are taken to a library and presented (because misguided parents think it might be fun) something which really is not encouraging broadening the mind through art, literature or music.

Doodledog

There is, of course, nothing wrong with being different, and teaching children to accept difference is a laudable aim, but that has to happen within acceptable boundaries or it’s dangerous.

Do we want them being taught that serial killers should be considered ’normal’ for instance? Where does ‘stranger danger’ fit with any of this?

I agree that poverty is something that desperately needs to be addressed, but with respect I think that that is entirely separate from this debate.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with being different, and teaching children to accept difference is a laudable aim, but that has to happen within acceptable boundaries or it’s dangerous.

I agree. I think one of those boundaries is explicit sexualisation. I don't believe drag queens dancing around to music in thongs or bondage-type clothing is appropriate - though I'm not sure if this is standard in these events.

I agree that poverty is something that desperately needs to be addressed, but with respect I think that that is entirely separate from this debate.

I mentioned it because the theme of drag readings / events is said to be about "inclusivity" and poverty definitely does not encourage universality in terms of broadening a child's mind via art, literature, music, etc.

TerriBull

Theexwife

If the parents did not attend the shows they would not happen.

Being a parent doesn't always equate to sound judgement, or acting in the best interests of a child. I believe someone mentioned up thread, there are beauty contests, where small girls are made up to the nines to look like mini adults, do these little girls put themselves forward to take part? Small children don't have a voice neither can they make an informed choice, they are reliant on adults to make safe and sensible decisions that will be in their best interests. Just because certain things exist, that doesn't make them right and there are always those who will be up for anything because often because it's what they want! I rather think the question that should be posed is not "if the parents did attend, these shows wouldn't be happening" but rather "why are they happening around very young children?" that's the basis of the OP.

I agree, either the parents were told it was just a fun event or they thought it was funny and didn’t care.Useless parents if so.

On employing drag acts in libraries and nurseries to do a reading hour, what the hell are the librarian or nursery manager thinking! Oh I know, they’re smugly congratulating themselves on running a ‘diverse’ outfit. Unless parents complain all this nonsense won’t go away.😡

Iam64 Good point, if we as adults feel uncomfortable and do not choose to enter that world, why do some adults feel it necessary to force this on their children. While accepting that there are levels of being and feeling different that are acceptable there are also levels that are morally wrong, vulgar and should not be considered normal behaviour in the context of entertainment for children.

Children need to be helped to understand their feelings and manage them. We all get cross or angry but throwing a tantrum or shouting isn’t the best way to tell people we are angry.
We also help children to keep safe, stranger danger but also that if a grown up does something , or asks you to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable, tell your parent or a grown up you trust

The drag shows being shown here make us feel uncomfortable. I’m sure my young grandchildren would feel uneasy . It crosses boundaries imo. It’s exposing children to an adult world I don’t choose to enter

There is, of course, nothing wrong with being different, and teaching children to accept difference is a laudable aim, but that has to happen within acceptable boundaries or it’s dangerous.

Do we want them being taught that serial killers should be considered ’normal’ for instance? Where does ‘stranger danger’ fit with any of this?

I agree that poverty is something that desperately needs to be addressed, but with respect I think that that is entirely separate from this debate.

Doodledog

I don't understand how it is inclusive at all. How many children have lives that include women dressed or made up like this? Or which normalise sexualised gyrating and so on?

I think that it would be one thing if the shows involved clown-like female impersonators (like Mother Goose/pantomime dames), in the guise of matronly older women in bloomers and a pinny who are obviously unthreatening. But this does not appear to be anything like that. It is sexualised and isn't inclusive of anything with which children are likely to be familiar - in fact if there were any suggestion that a child were familiar with this sort of thing it should be a huge and luminous red flag.

I believe DD the thinking is that it's a good idea for children to be made aware that there's nothing wrong with being or feeling different. It's really all wrapped-up in the culture of identity isn't it... expanding the views of what gender is via the art of drag.

It's a cultural and political movement I believe.

IMO, the one thing that discriminates and therefore 'excludes' children and possibly leaves them feeling marginalised is not so much how they identify gender-wise, it is that they are sidelined and excluded through poverty. Being poor, being the child of impoverished parents means you miss out on so much in life... miss so many opportunities in education, employment, and life in general. I think the focus is on the wrong issue. But that of course is purely my opinion. We don't need more options for children to explore their identities, we need more opportunities for them to fulfil their ambitions, and develop their abilities and talents... and being poor is a huge hurdle to all of these things.

It seems that what was once marginalised is now being pushed to be mainstream by certain sectors. With all the directives coming from those in charge who are hell bent on being seen to be more inclusive in whatever sort of organisation or workplace situation, it probably follows that those lower down the chain also want to be seen to be embracing all the inclusivity, maybe even scared they would lose their jobs if they challenged these activities. Surely we have to start pushing back what we, the majority see as unacceptable, possibly detrimental to the minds and well being of babies and young children.

As you rightly say Theexwife the responsibility lies with parents. They're responsible for being accompanied by their little ones to these 'performances' and knowing that the latest 'thing' is having Drag Queen's presenting story time, it's their responsibility to ensure they know precisely who will be giving the reading.

If that grotesque 'monkey' outfit is anything to go by, it would seem that there are some in positions of responsibility have no idea what's acceptable and what isn't.

Doodledog

I don't understand how it is inclusive at all. How many children have lives that include women dressed or made up like this? Or which normalise sexualised gyrating and so on?
I don’t see how it’s inclusive either, but anything which mentions weird sex-linked practices is now deemed inclusive or promoting diversity or being kind.

“A huge and luminous red flag”

When I worked with young children one of the signs that alerted us to possible abuse was sexualised postures and movements, which do not come naturally to young children. And language that was inappropriate to the normal range of experience.

Now adults can say Oh she’s just copying a show I took her to.

A very clever masking strategy?

I meant that the parents are responsible for what those babies are attending, they should be blamed for any wrongdoing.

Quite so Theexwife, they are 100% responsible. But, as we all know, some parents are just inadequate and make poor decisions generally. Some parents just don't understand what impact stuff like this will have on the children. And some parents are so fixated on being inclusive to anyone and everyone, no matter how obviously dodgy they are, that they genuinely can't see that their children are being groomed. My main bone of contention is with the organisers of these events, who either haven't done due diligence to establish the exact content of the show or,,alternatively, they have checked and have decided that the "marginalised drag act's" needs trump those of the vulnerable children.

If you look at the monkey man act at Redbridge Library, just remember that that character was actually photographed with members of the library staff. And they apparently thought it was fine.

I don't understand how it is inclusive at all. How many children have lives that include women dressed or made up like this? Or which normalise sexualised gyrating and so on?

I think that it would be one thing if the shows involved clown-like female impersonators (like Mother Goose/pantomime dames), in the guise of matronly older women in bloomers and a pinny who are obviously unthreatening. But this does not appear to be anything like that. It is sexualised and isn't inclusive of anything with which children are likely to be familiar - in fact if there were any suggestion that a child were familiar with this sort of thing it should be a huge and luminous red flag.

I meant that the parents are responsible for what those babies are attending, they should be blamed for any wrongdoing .

Theexwife

If the parents did not attend the shows they would not happen.

Being a parent doesn't always equate to sound judgement, or acting in the best interests of a child. I believe someone mentioned up thread, there are beauty contests, where small girls are made up to the nines to look like mini adults, do these little girls put themselves forward to take part? Small children don't have a voice neither can they make an informed choice, they are reliant on adults to make safe and sensible decisions that will be in their best interests. Just because certain things exist, that doesn't make them right and there are always those who will be up for anything because often because it's what they want! I rather think the question that should be posed is not "if the parents did attend, these shows wouldn't be happening" but rather "why are they happening around very young children?" that's the basis of the OP.

Anniebach

Mollygo I agree 100% with you.

So do I. It's an obscene, gratuitous pollution of precious childhood innocence.

If the parents did not attend the shows they would not happen.

Mollygo I agree 100% with you.

Anniebach

How can any parent justify exposing their child to such yuck

Anniebach haven’t you heard?
For those who would support it, or take part in it, it’s inclusive and promotes diversity, an opportunity to be kind.

Words which, like the word woman, have had their meanings adapted to suit what some males and even some females want.

Actually it’s just sick, insidious grooming, and another chance for some males to demonstrate their power and disrespect.

But you may well see some defence of their actions.

How can any parent justify exposing their child to such yuck

Beetlejuice

Just found these photos of the CabaBabaRave show which brands itself as a 'little slice of afternoon delight' that intersperses cabaret with 'captivating baby sensory moments' before 'ending in a rave'.

Footage showed one dancer, known as Benloader Circus, dressed in bondage gear while performing acrobatic sequences from straps dangling from the ceiling as babies and their parents watched.

The video also shows another act performing a handstand on a chair while wearing nothing but stilettos and a thong at The Flair Ground, near Waterloo in south-east London.

The organisers defended it, insisting it was carefully curated and suggesting the babies would not understand what was being performed - as they argued it provides a 'fun and welcoming space for parents with young babies'.

Well if the babies wouldn't understand what was being performed, why do that in front of them? I can only think of one reason why.

Anyone who would feel comfortable seeing their Grandchild, infant or not, exposed to performances like this is most certainly not an inhabitant of the world in which I choose to live. Appalling.

Beetlejuice omfg.

Those pictures show perverts.

Not drag; not trans; not ‘adult entertainment’; not ‘afternoon delight’ (innuendo which means daytime sexual intercourse)

Pure evil perversion.

It is a form of grooming-‘normalising’ abnormal behaviour.

Beetlejuice

Funny you should mention "legally allowable" Dickens because that's precisely CabaBabaRave's stance against their critics. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right and I would judge any adult who thought it was appropriate to expose a child to attending any performance where semi naked men grate in front of children.

Quite.

It's pushing the boundaries.

Children don't mature overnight. It really does seem like a form of grooming.

I would like to see an interview with the drag queens where they are asked what the point is of performing to children. If the children aren't going to understand the jokes, aren't going to pick up on the sexual connotations and there is no intention to gaslight them, then why are the drag queens doing it?

Also, what is the motive for the librarians and teaching staff who employ them, and who approached whom in the employment process?