What is a lesbian?

It’s really weird that those very people who are dictating that lesbians must include attraction to males in their sexuality are accusing others of dictating about people s sexuality.

Of course this is the argument that was used to confuse young lesbians who were exploring their sexuality and who were coerced into sex with males who cleverly confused them🙁

Weird indeed Lathyrus.

A new low!!! Lesbian (adjective) denoting or relating to women who are sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to other women, or to sexual attraction or activity between women.

(noun) a woman who is sexually or romantically attracted to other women.

Glorianny

Careful Doodledog references to Jewish people may be taken as a way of introducing religion into the discussion but honestly the extents to which some will go to prove their argument are amusing to say the least.

Whatever you may believe you have no rights to dictate who is a lesbian and who isn't. People decide their sexual orientation for themselves.

The only thing this thread shows is that those who would dictate who is and is not a woman, now apparently also want to dictate who is a lesbian.
Goes to show that discrimination never stops with one minority.

No, I won't be careful, thanks. I will post what I think, not what you decide I should think.

My reference to a Jewish dating event wasn't bringing religion into anything - just pointing to the fact that people wanting to meet others like them, or people who are likely to be suitable partners is very usual in dating. There would be no point in going to an event that featured people you (generic) are forbidden from marrying, or for people you are not going to be attracted to.

Can you please show me where I dictated who is a lesbian and who isn't? I have reread my post and can see no such diktat. Neither have I suggested that anyone be more 'adventurous' in their sexual choices, nor decided to which communities other posters belong, but one step at a time.

Was it G or VS who posted this?
I love how people can make all kinds of assumptions about the demographic that other people belong to and somehow see themselves as a of the demographic they think they belong to.

Such self importance
Such self delusion
So much deliberate misinformation
Very very little understanding or empathy

^Always the same people saying the same things^……..

But once again, that could be equally applied to the pontifications of Glorianny and the ever VS.

As Lathyrus says,

It’s really weird that those very people who are dictating that lesbians must include attraction to males in their sexuality are accusing others of dictating about people’s sexuality.

I move through life knowing I have caused no harm to those who cause no harm

That's good enough for me

I move through life like that too, but am unable to ignore those who do cause harm to others. Ignoring that isn't good enough for me.

Lathyrus

It’s really weird that those very people who are dictating that lesbians must include attraction to males in their sexuality are accusing others of dictating about people s sexuality.

Doodledog apologies if it wasn't clear the second part of my post wasn't directed at you. The careful about religion bit was just an aside. Sometimes a sense of humour helps

No one is dictating anything. Except those who insist lesbians can't have a relationships with transwomen.

Gay men sometimes have sex with women and even have children (Paul O'Grady for one) they are still gay.

Lesbians can have sex with whomsoever they wish, regardless of what sexual equipment they come with, they are still lesbians.
And some lesbians have relationships with transwomen.

Abandon your prejudices. Let people decide who they choose to partner with. Insisting women who have relationships with transwomen are not lesbians, is just as bad as saying any who choose not to have sex with transwomen are transphobic. It's just as judgemental.

Of course people can have sex with whoever they choose, but the definition of a lesbian is as I posted @ 16.27.

Mollygo

Was it G or VS who posted this?
I love how people can make all kinds of assumptions about the demographic that other people belong to and somehow see themselves as a of the demographic they think they belong to.

Such self importance
Such self delusion
So much deliberate misinformation
Very very little understanding or empathy

^Always the same people saying the same things^……..

But once again, that could be equally applied to the pontifications of Glorianny and the ever VS.

As Lathyrus says,

^It’s really weird that those very people who are dictating that lesbians must include attraction to males in their sexuality are accusing others of dictating about people’s sexuality.^

Perhaps you could quote where anyone has said ^lesbians must include attractions to males in their sexuality^- because be damned if I can find it.

Well yes I know many lesbians who have had sex with men, under no circumstances would they have described that as anything other than straight sex. They now want to only have sex with women, something which is made more difficult by the men present on their dating sites. As I have said before this has always been a problem amongst some men, when I was dating women we used to laugh at the men who wore the t shirt I am a lesbian on the inside. Much more difficult for those who are dealing with the same nonsense now just with added societal pressure.

Look harder.

No one is dictating anything. Except those who insist lesbians can't have a relationships with transwomen.
And who is doing that? All people are saying is that men crashing a lesbian dating event is not a good thing.

Gay men sometimes have sex with women and even have children (Paul O'Grady for one) they are still gay.
Goodness, how refreshing it is to have someone like you stating the obvious.

Lesbians can have sex with whomsoever they wish, regardless of what sexual equipment they come with, they are still lesbians.
And some lesbians have relationships with transwomen.
Absolutely. And if a lesbian wishes to do so, that is up to her, so long as she knows that that is what she is doing, and not having transwomen thrust upon her, so to speak.

Abandon your prejudices. Let people decide who they choose to partner with. Insisting women who have relationships with transwomen are not lesbians, is just as bad as saying any who choose not to have sex with transwomen are transphobic. It's just as judgemental.
Can you please show me where I have insisted anything of the kind, please? I think you'll find, if you abandon your prejudices and actually read my posts before getting trigger-happy that I said that lesbians may very well sometimes have sex with men, and that doesn't mean they are not lesbians. Or are you now going to say that this wasn't directed at me either?

No one is dictating anything. Except those who insist lesbians can't have a relationships with transwomen.
Who is insisting? If a lesbian decides to have a hetero relationship, that’s up to her.
It shouldn’t be forced upon her by a male in whatever guise and certainly not under misleading circumstances.

Mollygo

*No one is dictating anything. Except those who insist lesbians can't have a relationships with transwomen.*
Who is insisting? If a lesbian decides to have a hetero relationship, that’s up to her.
It shouldn’t be forced upon her by a male in whatever guise and certainly not under misleading circumstances.

Lathyrus at 14.20 And no. If you are attracted to a male snd want sex with a penis you are not a lesbian

Smileless2012 Of course people can have sex with whoever they choose, but the definition of a lesbian is as I posted @ 16.27

So some have views which I think dictate who can be what.
Interestingly then
Gay men can have sex with women
But
Lesbians can only have sex with women
Anyone spot the double standards????
Men can designate themselves whatever they wish
Women have to abide by a definition written for them.
That's really feminism isn't it.

It is certainly not feminism to have men pretending to be women attending same-sex dating events, supported by women who feel that lesbians should be more 'adventurous' in their sexual choices. I'm not sure what the word for that is.

Doodledog

It is certainly not feminism to have men pretending to be women attending same-sex dating events, supported by women who feel that lesbians should be more 'adventurous' in their sexual choices. I'm not sure what the word for that is.

I don't feel anything about lesbian's choices. I simply think they should be allowed to make them.

Glorianny

Lathyrus

It’s really weird that those very people who are dictating that lesbians must include attraction to males in their sexuality are accusing others of dictating about people s sexuality.

Doodledog apologies if it wasn't clear the second part of my post wasn't directed at you. The careful about religion bit was just an aside. Sometimes a sense of humour helps

No one is dictating anything. Except those who insist lesbians can't have a relationships with transwomen.

Gay men sometimes have sex with women and even have children (Paul O'Grady for one) they are still gay.

Lesbians can have sex with whomsoever they wish, regardless of what sexual equipment they come with, they are still lesbians.
And some lesbians have relationships with transwomen.

Abandon your prejudices. Let people decide who they choose to partner with. Insisting women who have relationships with transwomen are not lesbians, is just as bad as saying any who choose not to have sex with transwomen are transphobic. It's just as judgemental.

No one is dictating anything. Except those who insist lesbians can't have a relationships with transwomen.

Who is insisting that lesbians can't have a relationship with transwomen?

You raised the issue in an earlier post...

So if a lesbian chooses to have a relationship with a transwoman are GNers then saying she can no longer claim to be a lesbian? Because logically if you insist the transwoman is a man that is what you are claiming

... and I replied...

If a lesbian has a relationship with a trans woman - isn't she simply a lesbian who's chosen to have a relationship with a trans woman?

And I pointed out that heterosexuals sometimes toy with homosexual partners.

You suggested that if we insisted that a transwoman is a man - logically we were saying that a lesbian can no longer claim to be one.

Frankly, I think that is twisting it - or to use the proper phrase, you are misrepresenting the argument.

No one has suggested that lesbians shouldn't / can't / don't have a relationship with transwomen - or any other demographic. Plainly, they can, and most surely, they do.

What we are arguing - or certainly what I am arguing, is that a transwoman is biologically male - there is no getting away from that fact. Nothing has changed his XY chromosomes. Now that doesn't prevent a lesbian from dating them - if they want to - but I very much doubt the majority do. But no one on here is arguing that lesbians should only date lesbians, what we are arguing is that they should not be compelled at a dating event to have men among the selection of partners. At this particular event it doesn't appear that any lesbians challenged the request from the organiser that transwomen stay away from it because of previous harassment complaints.

You can argue until Kingdom come that a transwoman who says he is a woman, is a woman. But you will not convince me because biologically he isn't. He might be a lovely person, he might be someone I'd love to have as a friend (I do have one as a friend, who is a lovely person), he might well identify as a woman psychologically and culturally, and might have a better 'fit' in society identifying as a woman - but he is not a woman, he is a transwoman, and I will not accept that a transwoman and a woman are exactly one and the same.

That doesn't make me illogical or perverse or transphobic - transwomen like any other demographic have rights. But their rights don't override mine as a woman - and that is what some of them, the activists as we know them, want, which is why they threaten and harass and intimidate... typical male misogynistic behaviour, when their demands are not met. That transwoman who showed up at the dating event with his 'girl-dick' on prominent display - it wasn't an accident, it was deliberate, it was deliberately provocative - he was challenging them in the way that men do when they are, or feel they might be, rebuffed or rejected, and their male ego takes a hit. He was out to prove a point, and it's a point that those of us who are challenging your ideology, are not going to accept.

But no one's right have been overridden. The law is absolutely clear. Any event for women can be designated as being only for natal women if the women attending that event would not attend if transwomen attend.
The problem is that instead of using the law the woman organising the event took it upon herself to attempt to stop transwomen attending without using the proper legal process. I have no idea why she did so. But no one whatever their circumstances should be able to circumvent the law.
Had she pursued the legal process I would be 100% behind her.
Of course one reason she may not have used the legal process may be because some attendees would not want to ban transwomen.
You don't prove your point by making comments on social media you prove your point through due legal process.

The attendees has complained about previous events, one involving an alleged assault by a man.

You can trot out that nonsense about the law as often as it's convenient, Glorianny, buy if attendees don't know that their event is going to be colonised, how can they decide not to attend?

Using the 'woman on the Clapham Omnibus' interpretation of the law, it is reasonable to assume that an event advertised and intended to be for lesbians would not include men. Ipso facto, attendees would not consider whether if men were to be in attendance they would prefer not to attend.

Are you seriously suggesting that women get tickets, get dressed and travel to a venue in expectation of an all-female event, and then have to decide whether or not, because men have decided to turn up to spoil their evening, they should then withdraw their attendance? How long would it take to put the event manager out of business if that had to happen? And how many TRAs would see that as a perfect opportunity to shut down yet more women's events?

I know I've asked you this before, but can you think of any circumstances where you would put the rights of women, however hard won, ahead of those of passing men?

Glorianny please link to where the legal process you think she should have used is detailed. Does she have to fill in forms to apply for a legal dispensation, have pre bookings from named attendees etc. Are 'drop ins' not allowed?

Of course one reason she may not have used the legal process may be because some attendees would not want to ban transwomen. so if one or two potential attendees were happy to accommodate men in the lesbian event but 30 weren't, whose vote triumphs? Does the vote of a transwoman, a male, count for those wanting to admit men to the gathering?

Glorianny

Doodledog
Glorianny says,
I don't feel anything about lesbian's choices.
Well that’s certainly evident.

I simply think they should be allowed to make them.
So by choosing to attend a lesbian speed dating event, they hope (being lesbian) to meet other females.

But you still believe they should be faced with males, who’ve decided that they are lesbians too.

Hot dogs are not dogs, seahorses are not horses, transwomen are not women and certainly not lesbians.

Doodledog You posted while I was typing. Good point about getting to the venue to discover men are being admitted to a lesbian event and then having to decide whether or not to participate. The legal process Glorianny has mentioned more than once and on which she is obviously an expert would no doubt avoid any such occurrence. It will be interesting to read the exact process an organiser has to go through to get their legal dispensation to ban males from a lesbian event.

Rosie51

Glorianny please link to where the legal process you think she should have used is detailed. Does she have to fill in forms to apply for a legal dispensation, have pre bookings from named attendees etc. Are 'drop ins' not allowed?

Of course one reason she may not have used the legal process may be because some attendees would not want to ban transwomen. so if one or two potential attendees were happy to accommodate men in the lesbian event but 30 weren't, whose vote triumphs? Does the vote of a transwoman, a male, count for those wanting to admit men to the gathering?

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/guidance-separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-equality-act-sex-and-gender-reassignment-exceptions.pdf

And they provide a free advice service.
So not too difficult to discover.

It would be perfecly possible to have 2 levels of events one transwomen free, one transwomen inclusive.