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What is a lesbian?

(938 Posts)

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FarNorth Sun 13-Aug-23 00:31:17

Did you think it's uncontroversial to say that lesbians are women (adult female humans) who are sexually attracted to other women (adult female humans)?

You'd be wrong.

Men (adult male humans) can be lesbians too.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 01:07:01

There are some adult human males who really aren’t used to being told ‘no’, aren’t there? They behave like toddlers when thwarted, calling people names and reporting to higher authorities.

Why would a male-bodied person think that a lesbian would want to have sex with him? He might think he’s a woman, but the reality is that sexuality doesn’t take account of someone’s beliefs, or even their wants, unless there is an attraction in the first place.

Insisting that women should somehow override their sexuality and preferences to fit with transwomen’s fantasies that they are actually female shows the male entitlement that many will have been raised to expect.

VioletSky Sun 13-Aug-23 01:34:09

Usual, "here are some unprovable things that happened that justify our stance" because they can't just try handling the situation with a little dignity and respect and have the attendees simply not choose to date who they choose not to date

More ammunition against all the people who didn't try to go to their event and another raking over the coals of hundreds of thousands of trans people

Absolute non issue blown out of proportion for attention as usual

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 02:03:32

Your post is a perfect example of how confusing it can be when a plural pronoun is used when it is not clear whether the subject is singular or plural, (particularly when combined with a passive aggressive refusal to name names).

Who are you accusing of what, exactly?

because they can't just try handling the situation with a little dignity and respect
This bit is exactly what I think about people insisting on being able to gatecrash an event that is very obviously not designed for them, but I’m guessing that isn’t your point of view?

grannydarkhair Sun 13-Aug-23 05:08:02

Post from Jenny in the DM article - the venue has now cancelled her events after her using the pub for four and a half years.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 05:22:43

And people say that women aren’t the victims here, and that this isn’t a feminist issue 🙄.

Anniebach Sun 13-Aug-23 05:55:57

A man turning up in Lycra with an erection is - dignified and respectful !

FarNorth Sun 13-Aug-23 07:42:18

VioletSky said "Absolute non issue blown out of proportion for attention as usual"

grannydarkhair gave a link to this tweet showing that the regular event for women has been cancelled because some men want to be accepted as lesbians too.

So, not a non-issue for this event organiser and the lesbians who attend.

VioletSky do you really think that if it's just one instance of discrimination against lesbians simply defining themselves as female, it's fine?

Witzend Sun 13-Aug-23 07:55:17

It’s certainly uncontroversial to me.
I really can’t be bothered with this sort of nonsense.

FarNorth Sun 13-Aug-23 07:57:09

VioletSky said "they can't just try handling the situation with a little dignity and respect and have the attendees simply not choose to date who they choose not to date"

Does this mean you think that men should be allowed to attend and represent themselves as lesbians, while the women are free simply not to date them?

If so, can you really imagine that going well if men attend but never get dates with lesbians?
And, in any case, why should the women have to give time and attention, at a dating event, to people who are outside the category of people they may want to date?

If that's not what you meant, please correct me.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 07:59:52

How long did it take for lesbians (and gay men) to get to the point where they could advertise such events and hold them openly? How many women have taken half their lives (or longer) to realise that they are gay, and that events like this might help them find a partner to make them happy?

It’s horrible that they will have to go underground again because some men hate the idea that gay women don’t want sex with them, and would rather ruin their events than accept that they are not welcome.

Calling them ‘attention seeking’, ‘undignified’ and ‘disrespectful’ shows the true contempt for women that underpins TRA behaviour, and decent transpeople will, I am sure, be ashamed of what is happening in their name.

TerriBull Sun 13-Aug-23 08:01:18

Incredibly sorry for lesbians they appear the most beleaguered demographic in the whole trans issue debacle, insomuch as they can't even define their sexuality and personal preferences without being told that is exclusionary. Well of course it is, otherwise they wouldn't be lesbians. It's discriminatory the way they are being chucked under the bus and bullied, in the name of "inclusiveness"

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 08:07:08

Agreed, Terribull. There is a subset of men who have always resented lesbians as they see them as shrinking the pool of women who should be throwing themselves at them (or think that they just need ‘a good seeing to’ to learn the error of their ways), and this misogynistic movement is giving them free rein. It’s so regressive and we should not be letting it happen, much less deriding women who stand up for their rights.

Iam64 Sun 13-Aug-23 08:38:07

How anyone can defend this kind of oppression of lesbian women is beyond me.

It’s not unknown for adult men to be sexually excited by the very idea of lesbian sex. The Archers had a scene this week where a lesbian farmer and a regular character who so far as we know, had never shared a sexual kiss with another woman - snogged briefly. There are several Archers Facebook groups, with many sexual references from male contributors. ‘Phwaar’ was a regular.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 08:40:18

Yep. Women’s role is always to satisfy men in the eyes of some, eh?

pascal30 Sun 13-Aug-23 09:12:31


And people say that women aren’t the victims here, and that this isn’t a feminist issue 🙄.

completely agree..

Lathyrus Sun 13-Aug-23 09:57:14

Once again it’s the females who have to appease and handle a situation created solely by a male.

We mustn’t ever protest but handle any kind of violation with “dignity and respect” Any kind of protest is just attention seeking.

It’s no different from how we used to be told to handle groping in the work place, is it?

MissChateline Sun 13-Aug-23 09:59:44

As a lesbian who came out in my 30’s, nearly 35 years ago and who embraced the history of the struggle of lesbians before me to overcome so much prejudice, I am totally appalled and disgusted with this trend and the trans agenda being imposed on us. I am proud to be a TERF and I have strong views on what defines a man and a woman. A born male can wear whatever he wants, have as much surgery as he wants. But he will never be a woman. He will never experience what it is to be a female. He can call himself whatever he wants but he will never be a lesbian. These hard fought for spaces must never be lost.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 10:00:46

You’re right, it isn’t. Remember that in the eyes of some, feminism covers male rights too, so you can see how the dystopia began.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 10:07:48

It certainly does get VERY complicated! But surely, a person with an erection can't be a transgender woman? Here is the problem surely.

If a man has gone through the full chemical and surgical transformation- and is living fully as a woman, then perhaps dating women who are lesbian would be OK- as long as they accept that lesbian women make their choice, and it has to be respected.

I am thinking here about friends who have gone through the full reversal - and totally identify as female and live fully as females now.

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 10:10:58

I think we have to get away from that there is some way of 'living as a woman's there isnt, it just further reinforces stereotypes.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 10:14:25

Yes, complicated. So are you saying that transgender people, who have gone through the full reversal should always be considered as the sex they were born with, be it male or female- totally against their clear choice, having suffered for so many years and the pain of transition.

I am not talking in theory here. I am considering people I know very well, whom I have seen go through the whole process.

Stereotypes can go in all directions- and it seems some are OK, others are not.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 10:16:41

Miss Chateline, I totally get you. And yet, as said above. I am basing my comments on real people, friends and a nephew- who have gone through the whole very long and painful process. My respect goes to you, but how can I withdraw it from them. I won't.

Glorianny Sun 13-Aug-23 10:18:02

I'm just wondering how far such discrimination should extend. Speed dating for Gay men only- no transmen allowed.
Speeddating for transwomen- no ADF's, allowed
Speed dating for transmen- no male bodied at birth allowed
Speed dating for heterosexuals- no transpeople allowed
Speed dating for bisexuals- no hets, no gays, no lesbians allowed.
It could get so complicated!!!

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 10:21:19

I think pretending something isnt true isnt helpful to anyone. People can dress how they want, etc, etc but you cant change sex. If I say that men can become women it wont make it true.
I think with regards to single sex spaces then the equality act is clear at times trans people wont be treated as who they want to be ( for example transmen would not be placed in Male prison because of the risks).