What is a lesbian?

If it's there in the EA which of course we know it isn't, that would really set the cat among the pigeons wouldn't it Doodledog .

Mollygo

I will put this as simply as I can. TW can call themselves whatever they want. They will still be male.
Lesbians can have relationships with whoever they want and their partners can call themselves whatever they want. TW will still be male.

Males insisting on the right to go where they have explicitly not been invited is or not been included because the event is for females is another example of the cheating like that in sport.

Using
lesbians had the right not to attend a lesbian event if they did not wish to meet males makes a nonsense of the rights of lesbians who do only want to meet females is putting male wishes first again
The constant reiteration of circumstances evidencing that male wishes must come first makes me glad the majority of females, lesbian or not do not hold those
female-phobic views.

Well said Mollygo 👏👏👏

VioletSky

But some lesbians believe trans women are women

And if a group of lesbians wants to exclude trans women from an event

1 they all need to agree and all share the same belief

2 they should do so in line with the equality act

The equality act is there to protect you, me and any other person whatever their demographic

Either you want the act that protects your belief and you agree to others having different views and needs to you being covered by it or you are dictating who you feel it should apply to and treating life as hierarchy with yourself at the top.... no one has that right

Sigh.

Can you point to the bit in the EA that says that all lesbians (or anyone else for that matter) have to share the same belief, please?

Smileless2012

Agreed GrannySommerset it's unhelpful and annoying especially when there's a suggestion that those being disagreed with have educated themselves and we have not.

Yes, it's a case of agree, or stand accused of being old, uneducated, ignorant, uncaring, limited in social contacts, prejudiced, 'pathetic', racist, homophobic and more. All without any evidence and usually presented as a generalised slur.

But some lesbians believe trans women are women

And if a group of lesbians wants to exclude trans women from an event

1 they all need to agree and all share the same belief

2 they should do so in line with the equality act

The equality act is there to protect you, me and any other person whatever their demographic

Either you want the act that protects your belief and you agree to others having different views and needs to you being covered by it or you are dictating who you feel it should apply to and treating life as hierarchy with yourself at the top.... no one has that right

Agreed GrannySommerset it's unhelpful and annoying especially when there's a suggestion that those being disagreed with have educated themselves and we have not.

GrannySomerset

And this discussion shows why it becomes impossible to debate gender norms. Those of us who take the more scientific view, that chromosomes are unalterable, are shouted down by those who take the emotive view that feelings matter more. Very unhelpful.

Indeed, GrannySomerset. It is hard work, and as you say, very unhelpful.

It is impossible to argue with 'feelings', and whenever we ask about facts, laws or science we are ignored, or told that we are twisting things.

VioletSky

That's fine if that's what you prefer but not how I choose to live life

I'd rather educate myself first, not wait for someone to tell me they are harmed by me

Lathyrus told you that she has left GN because she was harmed by you, and you have made no attempt to address that on this thread.

OK here's what is written on the page I linked to
It is generally against the law to discriminate against someone because of a protected characteristic. However, there are certain circumstances when services can be provided either:

exclusively to one sex, or
differently to each sex or
separately to each sex.
Service providers must meet a number of conditions to lawfully establish a separate or single-sex service. These conditions are set out under exceptions relating to sex in the Act.

There are circumstances where a lawfully-established separate or single-sex service provider can exclude, modify or limit access to their service for trans people. This is allowed under provisions relating to gender reassignment in the Act.

Last updated: 05 May 2022
I've underlined the information which apparently isn't there

Yes, but there were no changes to the text you quote made in May 2022, were there? Where is the bit about women 'only having to say' that they won't attend something being needed to make cancellation (or keeping it to a single-sex event) legal? That's the bit that isn't there.

A definition of verbal imagery
What is verbal imagery in psychology?
It's called verbal imagery. Simply put, certain words create a clear picture in peoples' minds. It does this because your brain has associated that word with a very specific mental image, which is brought to the forefront when triggered by reading or hearing that word.
I am fully aware of what verbal imagery is. It applies in literature as well as psychology.
I think you are quite aware of the words which have been used the image this was meant to create and the problem with linking that to all transwomen. So you are quibbling over words.
You are wriggling again. What you posted was that the organiser used the images (whether verbal, as you now claim, or graphical) in order to cancel the event. She didn't. She was interviewed after the cancellation and explained why by using examples of her previous experience when the (regular) event had been crashed by TRAs.

This is what you said:
The organiser sadly tried to achieve something using unacceptable methods, which is why she has been called transphobic.
Had she merely asked for ,or arranged an event without transwomen she would have been legally entitled to. However in the course of doing this she used two images which are unacceptable to the transcommunity, one the person in lycra and the other an assault by a transwoman in the loo. (And yes I know they were both real). She used the worse stereotypes to justify her request, so indicating that this is how transwomen generally behave. It was transphobic to do so.

No, it wasn't. The examples she gave were in explanation after the event - they were not used as an excuse to cancel the event, and it is fallacious to suggest otherwise.

The first bit of that quoted post is in direct conflict with one you posted earlier on this very thread, too. At that point you were still insisting that it was only when women said they wouldn't attend if transwomen were going that an event could be cancelled. You even claimed that had the organiser 'used the law' you would have supported her 100%, and that your lack of support was because she had not 'used the proper legal process', as 'no one, whatever their circumstances should be allowed to circumvent the law, and followed this up with a guess at the reasons why she didn't 'use the law' (because in your opinion there would have been potential attendees who wanted to meet transwomen at a lesbian dating event), and a lecture about how people should prove their point through 'due legal process'. 'Sadly', however, there is no such law to back up your claim, and as far as we can tell there never has been. This is what you said:

The law is absolutely clear. Any event for women can be designated as being only for natal women if the women attending that event would not attend if transwomen attend.
The problem is that instead of using the law the woman organising the event took it upon herself to attempt to stop transwomen attending without using the proper legal process. I have no idea why she did so. But no one whatever their circumstances should be able to circumvent the law.
Had she pursued the legal process I would be 100% behind her.
Of course one reason she may not have used the legal process may be because some attendees would not want to ban transwomen.
You don't prove your point by making comments on social media you prove your point through due legal process.

I will put this as simply as I can. TW can call themselves whatever they want. They will still be male.
Lesbians can have relationships with whoever they want and their partners can call themselves whatever they want. TW will still be male.

Males insisting on the right to go where they have explicitly not been invited is or not been included because the event is for females is another example of the cheating like that in sport.

Using
lesbians had the right not to attend a lesbian event if they did not wish to meet males makes a nonsense of the rights of lesbians who do only want to meet females is putting male wishes first again
The constant reiteration of circumstances evidencing that male wishes must come first makes me glad the majority of females, lesbian or not do not hold those
female-phobic views.

That's fine if that's what you prefer but not how I choose to live life

I'd rather educate myself first, not wait for someone to tell me they are harmed by me

And this discussion shows why it becomes impossible to debate gender norms. Those of us who take the more scientific view, that chromosomes are unalterable, are shouted down by those who take the emotive view that feelings matter more. Very unhelpful.

If a lesbian and/or a trans woman posts on GN that anything I have posted has harmed them in any way I will respond but as you are so quick to point out, we should not speak for everyone should we.

But Smileless

Not all harm is caused purposefully or even knowingly

If no one tells us, how would we ever learn and grow as people

Please don't suggest I am doing harm VS because of what I'm posting.

I don't require you to put your point of view simply, I understand what you are saying and I disagree with you. It's as simple as that and I see no point in continuing to engage with you on this particular topic.

I will put this as simply as I can

Picture A, A is a person who has never been attracted to men and has always known she is a lesbian since she was a child.

A is also of the belief that trans women are women and one day meets B

B is a person who has known that their outside does not express who they are since they were a child and she has transitioned to female

A and B fall in love and begin to date

A is still a lesbian

A still believes she is dating a woman

No other lesbians or women have been harmed in any way by this happy union

Going online and saying A is "dating a biological man" and "therefore not a lesbian" is pointless and only achieves harm

Yes and ........ you challenge what I think VS and in addition to saying I am wrong in a very wordy way, you are constantly accusing me of dictating to others.

You have challenged what I think Smileless you have only said "you are wrong" in a very wordy way

I'm neither asking or expecting you to not challenge what I post VS, but you appear to expect me not to challenge what you post which isn't how a discussion works.

We are all entitled to speak for ourselves despite you only seemingly want those who are in agreement with you to speak.

Your constant accusations that I am dictating are becoming as tedious as they are irrelevant.

doodledog I have told you before that I use "some people" as an unknown amount of people and that is actually quite clear by the context

If you want to quibble that my grammar or the way I speak is a justification for not engaging with me, then don't engage with me

Or you can choose to disregard that as "untrue" and continue an argument about it that is basically a pointless attack due to your perceptions of who you want me to be

Or choose to understand we are all different and simply engage me as another human being who speaks differently for whatever reason and has been honest with you about it

OK here's what is written on the page I linked to
It is generally against the law to discriminate against someone because of a protected characteristic. However, there are certain circumstances when services can be provided either:

exclusively to one sex, or
differently to each sex or
separately to each sex.
Service providers must meet a number of conditions to lawfully establish a separate or single-sex service. These conditions are set out under exceptions relating to sex in the Act.

There are circumstances where a lawfully-established separate or single-sex service provider can exclude, modify or limit access to their service for trans people. This is allowed under provisions relating to gender reassignment in the Act.

Last updated: 05 May 2022

I've underlined the information which apparently isn't there
A definition of verbal imagery
What is verbal imagery in psychology?
It's called verbal imagery. Simply put, certain words create a clear picture in peoples' minds. It does this because your brain has associated that word with a very specific mental image, which is brought to the forefront when triggered by reading or hearing that word.
I think you are quite aware of the words which have been used the image this was meant to create and the problem with linking that to all transwomen. So you are quibbling over words.

Smileless that's not an argument that relates to what I said

I believe Trans women are women ergo, they may be lesbians

I am happy to discuss what you believe but I will not listen to you disregard the feelings, identities and lifestyles of others unchallenged as if you are the only one allowed an opinion on the matter

You are not

LGBTQ people have the right to speak for themselves and you do not have the right to dictate.... Only discuss

VioletSky

Anyone it applies to doodledog

You can read and respond by choice, if I don't tag, that's less pressure

Less pressure?

Not when someone uses the second person pronoun, which makes the post appear as though it is directly addressing one person. If the wrong person replies they can be asked 'why do you think this is about you?' It is far more honest to direct posts to the person they are actually addressing. The whole 'some people' thing is passive aggressive and tedious, as are supposedly general posts addressed to a nebulous 'you'.

I am listening

Quite respectfully

I don't make personal comments

I don't assign meaning to others

I don't word twist

And sometimes I agree on certain issues and even change my thoughts on them

So it is easy to tell

I didn't come up with the word lesbian that refers to women who are emotionally and physically attracted to other women VS. So I am dictating nothing. That is the definition of a lesbian.

Lesbians are of course entitled to have relationships with who ever the please, and if they want to call a relationship with a trans woman a lesbian relationship, they can do so but that doesn't mean that it is. I honestly don't know why that doesn't make sense to you, whether or not you agree.

A good summary of what we have learned Doodledog.