What is a lesbian?

I love how people feel they can speak for demographics they don't belong to or that they are somehow a representative of the entirety of a demographic they do belong to

Such self importance
So many double standards
So much misinformation
Scapegoating the trans demographic
Very little understanding or empathy

Always the same people saying the same things, nothing new, nothing learned, nothing gained

Lathyrus

But presumably Fleurpepper your friend does go into female spaces. Toilets, changing rooms, maybe hospital wards?

Places where females do not want males and where, if they knew a person there was male, they would object or not be able to go.

So when your friend goes into those places they are choosing to deceive those females, ignore their wishes and put their own desires first.

Is that not male dominance. The fact that it is hidden makes it no less so

My friends, I have three with full reversal. One of them, you would never ever know- and she is married to man.

Yes, they do go into 'female spaces' - quite naturally. And I can't understand why anyone would object- as they cannot rape, have no penis, are totally respectful of other women, whatever they claim to be, heterosexual, lesbian or whatever.

A trans woman as my friends, would be at massive risk of being attacked, verbally or physically, and even raped- if they went to a male toilet for instance- as they all 3 choose to dress in a feminine way, wear light make-up, etc. I know some of you will say 'who cares if the get attacked or raped- it's their choice to have become trans and look/dress as they do' - but I truly believe this would be unfair, cruel and very dangerous for them.

The type of man who would behave as the ones described re the Lesbian speed dating event- would be very dangerous for them.

I suggest you google a little and find out about the lesbian who are in relationships with transwomen and still call themselves lesbians.
But I suppose as with all of these threads dictating what people can and cannot be is typical.

Lesbians are emotionally and physically attracted to females Glorianny. It's not for me to say whether or not a lesbian choosing to have a close relationship with a trans woman can claim to be a lesbian. Future partners however, may not feel comfortable knowing that she had a close relationship with a man.

Trans women are men and men can't be lesbians. Trans men are women and saying so isn't disrespecting them, it's a biological fact.

TRA's are damaging women and damaging members of the trans gender community.

A trans man can be called a birth person if they want. It’s disrespect that they show in demanding that all women are called that.

Snd no. If you are attracted to a male snd want sex with a penis you are not a lesbian.

How hard is that to understand?

So if a lesbian chooses to have a relationship with a transwoman are GNers then saying she can no longer claim to be a lesbian? Because logically if you insist the transwoman is a man that is what you are claiming
This is another illogicality in the thinking which claims to support women, But insists transmen are women, just not the sort of women whose views need to be respected. {wanting to be referred to as a birth person, person with a cervix etc)
And now apparently lesbians who are involved with transwomen are apparently involved with men so can't be lesbians any longer.
And they claim Trans Activists are damaging women!!!!

But presumably Fleurpepper your friend does go into female spaces. Toilets, changing rooms, maybe hospital wards?

Places where females do not want males and where, if they knew a person there was male, they would object or not be able to go.

So when your friend goes into those places they are choosing to deceive those females, ignore their wishes and put their own desires first.

Is that not male dominance. The fact that it is hidden makes it no less so

FarNorth the problem is with any TW insisting he is a woman and can therefore be a lesbian, or claiming to be a woman and can enter female safe spaces, demonstrating quite clearly that he is male. I’d still object if I’d asked for a female nurse in certain circumstances.
The nice ones presumably wouldn’t do that.

If all transwomen were like your friends FP the situation with the dating event would never have happened.
But it did happen and it's not an isolated instance of women being told they must have no boundaries at all towards men who say they are women.
Our whole society is being changed by these men and their demands, so the niceness of a few people who are your friends is really irrelevant.

FarNorth

Doodledog

There are some circumstances in which I would differentiate between transitioned transwomen and self-identified ones, although I don’t think either of them have become women. But whatever they have done to their bodies, if they are sexually attracted to women they are straight men, not lesbians, and passing themselves off as such is dishonest.

And regardless of what those men think about it, lesbians are entitled to want nothing to do with them in a dating situation.

Absolutely and totally. NO-ONE has said otherwise- and my trans friends would be the first to agree- one of their main reason to go for full reversal was to reject male violence, domination and control.

Lathyrus

And no matter what surgery a male has had and even if they think of themselves as female, if they force their way into a space where females have said no, they are still part of male violence snd domination.

Even if they think they have rejected it.

Would your transitioned friends go into such spaces Fleur?

NO; NEVER and that is my very point.

Iam64, I am not accusing anyone of anything at all. I was responding to a very specific comment, that clearly put all trans women, whether fully transitionned or not, in the same category. They are no- even if many of you still consider them as men.

Yes, the trans women I know who have had full reversal, have a vagina that is fully functional, eg can experience pleasure. I am fully aware that some may not be so blessed- but there is no reason to discriminate against them and 'lump them' with those trans men who are hell bent on attacking lesbians, surely.

Someone mentioned the Cotton Ceiling, earlier.
Of course that's what this is, with men trying to push their way through women's sexual boundaries.

Doodledog

There are some circumstances in which I would differentiate between transitioned transwomen and self-identified ones, although I don’t think either of them have become women. But whatever they have done to their bodies, if they are sexually attracted to women they are straight men, not lesbians, and passing themselves off as such is dishonest.

And regardless of what those men think about it, lesbians are entitled to want nothing to do with them in a dating situation.

Sinead Watson, who detransitioned after several years as a young transman, has said that she doesn't trust any transwomen as she experienced sexual harassment and molestation from men claiming to be transwomen, all while Sinead was a transman.

Indeed maytime only people born with a female body are girls or women, likewise only people born with a male body are boys or men.
What is wrong with everyone presenting as they want while being honest about their sex, when it's relevant?

Are some gransnet people being delusional when posting about transitioned males into "females". Yes trans people might be very gentle souls who have suffered mentally before deciding that they will only have peace if they start to wear womens' clothing and try to act as they think a woman would.
No one that has not experienced mensuration, the birth of a child, or the sexual experiences of a female born person has earned the right to call themselves "female" and never will.
I know that my opinion goes against the wokeness that is prevalent at the moment but they are immutable facts.

Fleurpepper - you’re accusing others of putting people into categories.
Can I point out your statement thst trans women orgasm etc may be true of your friends. It isn’t borne out by many, trans women or trans men, who not only don’t have sexual pleasure but experience persistent pain

And no matter what surgery a male has had and even if they think of themselves as female, if they force their way into a space where females have said no, they are still part of male violence snd domination.

Even if they think they have rejected it.

Would your transitioned friends go into such spaces Fleur?

Fleurpepper what are the 'real' transwomen doing to improve the current situation where we are told to accept any & every male who calls himself a woman?

Very few speak out about it eg Debbie Hayton, Kristina Harrison.

There are some circumstances in which I would differentiate between transitioned transwomen and self-identified ones, although I don’t think either of them have become women. But whatever they have done to their bodies, if they are sexually attracted to women they are straight men, not lesbians, and passing themselves off as such is dishonest.

Gay men's rights to male-only places are being eroded too but we don't hear about it so much, probably because men are unlikely to be at physical risk from women who claim to be men.

It's true that the situation is desperate but there is hope as some people, usually women, are taking legal action -

e.g. Maya Forstater who gained legal recognition that belief in the existence of two immutable biological sexes, rather than a 'gender spectrum', is a belief 'worthy of respect in a democratic society' as the law put it,

e.g. Julie Bindel who gained an apology & damages from Nottingham City Council after she began a legal challenge to their cancellation of her booking of a hall because council members objected to her GC views,

e.g. Joanna Cherry whose event at The Stand, Edinburgh, was reinstated after the owners realised that their cancellation based on JC's views was illegal and her legal case against them would be successful,

e.g. Jo Phoenix who currently has an employment tribunal against the Open University because of harassment and abuse due to her setting up & running the OU Gender Critical Research Network
www.crowdjustice.com/case/harassed-silenced-for-my-gender-critical-views/

e.g. Sibyl Ruth who also has an employment tribunal underway, against Cornerstones Literary Consultancy, who discriminated against her because of her belief in two immutable biological sexes.
www.crowdjustice.com/case/sibyl-ruth-free-speech-rights/

Sorry FP but they are all in the same category for me. The category of men. I know many men who would never harm women but I dont them in womens spaces.

Doodledog

I don’t see the rights of the two groups as in conflict - transwomen are men, and lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to other women. Their rights have nothing to do with those of transpeople.

A transwoman who is attracted to women is a straight man, whose rights do not conflict with those of lesbians unless he believes that they should put aside their sexual preferences and have sex with him, for reasons I don’t understand.

No worries, VN.

I've tried to keep away. But I have to say here, surely it is very important to stop putting all trans women into the same category.

Those who aspire to being a woman, for whatever reason, and some full time and others for part of the time, represent one group. And your comment therefore applies.

But I cannot accept that trans women who have 100% committed to becoming a woman hormonally and physically, emotionally and sexually (yes they have fully functional vaginas and do feel pleasure and can orgasm), after a very long period of adjustment, and painful treatment- belong to a different category. These trans women would never try and impose their sexual will on lesbians, whom they consider as sisters. They, at least all the ones I know- wanted to become women partly in order to reject male violence, control and domination.

You just can't put them all in the same category- because it makes it simpler, etc. This is totally unfair.

Is it possible that if we allow the next generation of children to respond instinctively to what they like or don't like; allow them to play with whatever toys grab their imagination; wear the clothes they choose to wear; attempt to give them the tools to think critically as they grow - and above all, try to teach them not to be bullies... that they might not have so much angst in their formative years and later, in school?

And, I know it's the parents' responsibility - but the easy access to pornography is a gateway to corruption of young minds that are not yet equipped with the mental capacity to filter what they see and separate role-play from reality.

I don't think the transition from babyhood to childhood to adulthood is ever 'smooth' - but should it be as complex and anxiety-ridden as it appears to be now? There should be a time in childhood when the days are endless, time is irrelevant, and the opportunities are limitless; the one time in a short life where you can joyfully indulge yourself before you acquire the mantle of adulthood and all the responsibilities that go with it.

Why are so many children unhappy and why do they have so many mental health problems?

I too feel in despair. Women are being watered down and manipulated. Where will it end ?