What is a lesbian?

Glorianny once again
is actually just labelling them and sticking them into a box which suits her or maybe his own prejudices and preconceptions.

Glorianny in my experience on GN
has always supported males at the expense of females.
Happily,
I do however know that there are women (or men) who aren’t so divisive and restrictive in their views.

NB using religion as a basis for your argument about protection by men is sad and misguided.
It would, if they could read it, leave those women suffering under Taliban rules thinking that women? like you condone the misogyny of the males.

That has to be the most ironic post I have ever seen.

Mollygo

Wow! Well done Glorianny!
At last, the deviation I’ve been waiting for. Religion
Unfortunately many of those condemning transpeople are playing into the hands of the right wing religious groups who are using the issue to promote the idea that women need protection and men must provide that.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.
Let’s not pretend that those poor women suffering under the Taliban are being protected.
It’s another example of men determined to get their own way.
As you have heard and ignored many times on GN, the TW being condemned, mostly by females, but also by men and other transwomen, are not transpeople or even TW in general, simply those misogynistic males who who set out to harm females, to override female rights, to chat and lie their way to success, and when thwarted, to resort to violence.
Whilst adamantly denying that you support any sort of violence, you continue on your merry way using every opportunity to support males.
That would be bad if the person continually promoting the support of males first, but doubly shameful if the person putting males first is a female.

Bringing religion into it, it was a comment about a book I have read and loved for many years, which is about religion. Sadly so many people who watched the TV series failed to understand the significance of the name "Gilead" the references to the bible, or the problems with the status of women in far right religions.
Unfortunately these are the same regardless of if it is a Muslim or Christian religion. The men responsible and the women who support them believe they are protecting women. Nor is it just men who believe this. Some women follow the same beliefs absolutely.
I have never supported males at the expense of females I do however know that there are women who are just as divisive and restrictive in their views as men and would always oppose those views.

Of course both men and women attend heterosexual dating events, The clues are there, aren't they? Are women likely to be welcome at a similar one for gay men? I doubt it.

Please stop justifying your egregious lack of concern for women's rights as inclusivity 😂. There is more than a little of the 'white saviour' mentality going on there - mixed with a very large dose of arrogance.

Dickens

Doodledog

.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

👏

... I'd add that the opportunity "to be more sexually adventurous" is (a) a very personal and individual choice, and (b) one that is probably fairly available to most without the need for it to be sanctioned or enforced by any local or government authority.

If lesbians want to venture into unknown 'territory' they will make it clear (or just do it) in the same way that hetero women will. There is no bar to women who want to experiment in the trans world - these women, lesbians, are not being denied an opportunity and if they thought they were, I think they'd make that clear. The organiser of the event can take a 'vote' from those invited on the invitees without any outside interference.

If I wanted to set up a "knit-and-natter" evening, I'd open it to anyone who wanted to - well, knit and natter, as their biological sex or orientation would not matter. If, on the other hand, I wanted to organise a speed-dating event for grannies who might be foot-loose and fancy free - I, and they - might want some control over those invited to a potentially 'intimate' environment.

Speed dating isn't really "intimate" though is it?
It's held in a public place where you chat for a few minutes to each person.
There are ways of limiting who attends. Hetero speed dating always involves tickets to ensure equal numbers of men and women attend. Some have age restrictions.
I fully agree that some lesbians wouldn't want transwomen there, but I have no idea if all would feel like that. I don't think anyone on GN knows either, so their supposed championing of lesbians is actually just labelling them and sticking them into a box which suits their own prejudices and preconceptions.

Which 'some' are these, Glorianny, and do you have examples, please? These vague comments so often sound like digs, which are not in the spirit of GN, but maybe you don't mean them like that?

Galaxy

I just need to clarify that a woman who organises a lesbian only event is upholding the patriarchy so I am guessing the penis owner was what smashing the patriarchy?

No, but patriarchal methods are not the sole responsibility of men, some women use them as well. The reason being of course that they are raised in a patriarchal society and accept patriarchal methods of administration as the only acceptable ones. Taking time to examine the methods being used is always valuable, and many times there are ways to meet the same aims by using less dictatorial methods. From these we can build a more feminised society and inspire the next generation to create a more inclusive and equal world.
Sadly some look at feminism and still think the only way to do this is by behaving in the same way as men, something which was advocated in the 70s, but hasn't really led to success for women.

Galaxy

Having sex with someone with a penis is not more adventurous, the exact opposite frequently.

🤣🤣🤣
I don’t get the adventurous reference when it means having to have sex with someone who doesn’t meet your criteria for an acceptable partner.
In my younger days, adventurous was having sex in unexpected places, like in a tent half way up Kilimanjaro, or when sharing a (grantedly large) bedroom with my in-laws.

I just need to clarify that a woman who organises a lesbian only event is upholding the patriarchy so I am guessing the penis owner was what smashing the patriarchy?

Having sex with someone with a penis is not more adventurous, the exact opposite frequently.

Of course, Dickens, but Glorianny just likes to suggest that her fellow Gransnetters are less worldly than she is. That there is zero evidence for this is irrelevant.

In answer to the OP what is a lesbian ?

I know what isn’t a lesbian and that’s a man in tight leggings sporting an erection…

Doodledog

*.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women*
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

👏

... I'd add that the opportunity "to be more sexually adventurous" is (a) a very personal and individual choice, and (b) one that is probably fairly available to most without the need for it to be sanctioned or enforced by any local or government authority.

If lesbians want to venture into unknown 'territory' they will make it clear (or just do it) in the same way that hetero women will. There is no bar to women who want to experiment in the trans world - these women, lesbians, are not being denied an opportunity and if they thought they were, I think they'd make that clear. The organiser of the event can take a 'vote' from those invited on the invitees without any outside interference.

If I wanted to set up a "knit-and-natter" evening, I'd open it to anyone who wanted to - well, knit and natter, as their biological sex or orientation would not matter. If, on the other hand, I wanted to organise a speed-dating event for grannies who might be foot-loose and fancy free - I, and they - might want some control over those invited to a potentially 'intimate' environment.

Glorianny

As for those who say I haven't read the article and I'm misrepresenting what was said. Anecdotal reporting is not evidence. It would have been perfectly possible to collect evidence and to clearly prove that the women attending the event would not attend if transwomen did. The organiser chose not to take that route, if it was through ignorance or ideology I have no idea. Had she chosen to make her case legally the event could have been exactly what she wanted it to be. As I said unfortunately she didn't do that.

Why would the organiser take a legal route? She was organising a an evening for a relatively small group of women. If women wanting to have female-only events had to resort to the law every time, it would cost a fortune, take ages and in the end there would be very few opportunities for women to get together without men. Misogynist would be delighted.

Oh, hang on. . . .

And Dickens
And everyone who fights against this determined erosion of women's hard fought for rights.

Doodledog

*.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women*
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

Spot on, Doodledog

Even if these trans women may think they are now women, do they not realise they are behaving like misogynistic males?
🤔

.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

Mollygo

Wow! Well done Glorianny!
At last, the deviation I’ve been waiting for. Religion
Unfortunately many of those condemning transpeople are playing into the hands of the right wing religious groups who are using the issue to promote the idea that women need protection and men must provide that.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.
Let’s not pretend that those poor women suffering under the Taliban are being protected.
It’s another example of men determined to get their own way.
As you have heard and ignored many times on GN, the TW being condemned, mostly by females, but also by men and other transwomen, are not transpeople or even TW in general, simply those misogynistic males who who set out to harm females, to override female rights, to chat and lie their way to success, and when thwarted, to resort to violence.
Whilst adamantly denying that you support any sort of violence, you continue on your merry way using every opportunity to support males.
That would be bad if the person continually promoting the support of males first, but doubly shameful if the person putting males first is a female.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.

Quite.

The aggressive, shouty, trans women waving placards with sexually explicit 'messages' centred around their 'girl-dicks' and directed at 'TERFS' are a sub-set of the misogynist male - males that use their dicks as a weapon against women who will not submit to their demands. Typical male misogynistic behaviour.

Wow! Well done Glorianny!
At last, the deviation I’ve been waiting for. Religion
Unfortunately many of those condemning transpeople are playing into the hands of the right wing religious groups who are using the issue to promote the idea that women need protection and men must provide that.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.
Let’s not pretend that those poor women suffering under the Taliban are being protected.
It’s another example of men determined to get their own way.
As you have heard and ignored many times on GN, the TW being condemned, mostly by females, but also by men and other transwomen, are not transpeople or even TW in general, simply those misogynistic males who who set out to harm females, to override female rights, to chat and lie their way to success, and when thwarted, to resort to violence.
Whilst adamantly denying that you support any sort of violence, you continue on your merry way using every opportunity to support males.
That would be bad if the person continually promoting the support of males first, but doubly shameful if the person putting males first is a female.

Lathyrus

Oh well. At least those who read the this thread will be able to discern the truth.

Without adding if . . . to make something say what they want.

Oh well. At least those who read the this thread will be able to discern the truth.

As for those who say I haven't read the article and I'm misrepresenting what was said. Anecdotal reporting is not evidence. It would have been perfectly possible to collect evidence and to clearly prove that the women attending the event would not attend if transwomen did. The organiser chose not to take that route, if it was through ignorance or ideology I have no idea. Had she chosen to make her case legally the event could have been exactly what she wanted it to be. As I said unfortunately she didn't do that.

NanKate

I’ve just watched a fascinating interview on the BBC with Margaret Atwood, the writer of The Handmaid Maid’s tale’ a dystopian story of the oppression of young females being forced to give birth for the sterile wives of rich men.

If MA had written a book then about about natal women being suppressed/superseded by transwomen, it would have seemed frightening, but unlikely to happen. How wrong can one be?

I feel we are being subsumed by the Trans lobby and we can do little to stop it.

Actually a book about the taking over of a state by religious bigots whose beliefs designated women as second class citizens. The main aim being the suppression of women who were powerful and independent. The impregnating of women became necessary when some of the members of the religious elite became infertile. A book largely about how there are groups of religious right wing people who seek to deny women their rights and confine them to the home and childbearing. Written long before trans issues. It does however illustrate vividly that it is a short step from saying women must have safe spaces to decreeing they must stay in those spaces.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women
Unfortunately many of those condemning transpeople are playing into the hands of the right wing religious groups who are using the issue to promote the idea that women need protection and men must provide that.

One of the great things about GN is that you can have no real idea of either of those, and indeed why should it matter?

In which case Glorianny, why are you bothering to contribute to this thread?

I’ve just watched a fascinating interview on the BBC with Margaret Atwood, the writer of The Handmaid Maid’s tale’ a dystopian story of the oppression of young females being forced to give birth for the sterile wives of rich men.

If MA had written a book then about about natal women being suppressed/superseded by transwomen, it would have seemed frightening, but unlikely to happen. How wrong can one be?

I feel we are being subsumed by the Trans lobby and we can do little to stop it.