What is a lesbian?

If you’re asked and you lie, or you go somewhere where your sex has been specifically not asked to attend, regardless of how you see yourself, then you’re dishonest and that says a lot about you.
The likelihood of FP’s niece being asked Are you a man? sounds remote. It would be up to FP’s niece to decide whether FP’s niece’s feelings are more important than the truth if someone specifically asked for a female attendant and again, the choice is truth or dishonesty.

I know it's so tricky isnt it. As I say Starmer could be the first female leader of the labour party.

Smileless2012

It's hard to believe I know but I think that is what Glorianny's saying Rosie!!!

At least she's honest then. Punishment for "wrong think" even if it causes pain and suffering. The 'kind and inclusive' ones indeed Galaxy.

Somehow we seem to be managing this impossible task though sport and prisons are now mostly segregated by sex (some sports still playing funny buggers but that will change).

Transphobia is a fear and/or dislike of trans gender. Not wanting to receive intimate care from, and/or not wanting trans women in women's spaces is not always or necessarily because they are feared or disliked.

Yet, those of us who say that it is impossible to change sex have on numerous occasions on these threads been accused of being transphobic.

If some women are afraid of men and don't want them to provide intimate care and/or be present in facilities for women, are you suggesting that they are wrong? Do you believe that a woman in those circumstances should have a trans woman forced upon them because the the beliefs of a trans woman should take precedence Glorianny?

The fact that they are discriminating against protected groups doesnt seem to matter in their inclusivity, disabled people, those who hold religious beliefs, etc none of these matter in the search for inclusivity.

Galaxy You don't actually expect disabled people to count do you?
July was disability pride month, but everybody knows that as the shops and streets were alive with banners and posters celebrating everything disabled people bring to our lives and world..........oh hang on........

I didn't even know that July was disability pride month. What a difference in advertising and publicity.

Galaxy

The fact that they are discriminating against protected groups doesnt seem to matter in their inclusivity, disabled people, those who hold religious beliefs, etc none of these matter in the search for inclusivity.

Yes, 'inclusivity' doesn't seem to include the disabled, the elderly, women, those who hold faiths with obligations to avoid intimate touching from members of the opposite sex - in fact anyone who doesn't go along with the idea that men should be able to access all areas - whether of women's spaces or women's bodies. In fact, the only group being 'included' is transpeople - everyone else can lump it.

The idea that an older woman (or a young disabled one) should be made to suffer because she has asked for personal care to be given by other women implies that a high percentage of care workers are male - whether transwomen or not. Is this based on fact, or is it made up to suit the punitive argument - the 'put up or shut up' misogyny that underpins so much of the 'debate' that surrounds this topic now that No Debate has been put to bed? If it is supposed to be fact, please may we have some statistics that show that the number of male carers is such that this is likely - particularly given that a significant number of women may not mind who is giving her care?

I would be surprised to find that so many carers are either male-presenting men or transwomen that it would be so difficult to find a woman to attend to another women that clients risk skin damage simply for asking for a female carer, but I may, of course, be wrong.

Where medical care is concerned (as opposed to personal care) my understanding is that some religions (eg Orthodox Judaism) put the welfare of the patient ahead of usual obligations, and in emergencies it may well be the case that there is no time to gain explicit consents in any case; but where planned care is concerned people need to be given enough information to ensure that they give informed consent, or to refuse if that is their choice.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Smileless2012

In your example @ 11.21 Glorianny if that's the EW's choice, it is one she is entitled to make.

I never said she wasn't I said it was sometimes the fact and she and her family would have to accept it might happen. Rosie51then questioned it with some very odd comments about the numbers of transwomen.
The real question then is who will be to blame for the damage caused to her skin?

Oh for goodness' sake! Are you really saying that if an elderly woman rejected a male helping her with toileting she would be left for hours without a female coming to see to her? That would suggest a policy of punishment for asserting her own boundaries mattered. Skin damage doesn't happen within minutes of sitting in your own soil or else babies would be in big trouble!

Rosie51 you really don't know much about staffing in care homes, or how delicate elderly skin is do you? Comparing a 90 year old's skin with a baby's really is a joke.
Incontinence-associated dermatitis (IAD) occurs as a result of prolonged exposure of the skin to faeces or urine, either from incontinence or an inability to cleanse and dry the skin adequately after toileting. It is prevalent in nursing home environments and people receiving long-term care or assistance at home, with rates varying from 5.6% to 50% — the highest incidence rate being in people with faecal incontinence or receiving long-term care

Their personal care plan would be implemented prior to admission unless the service was very poor.

There was the legal case in Canada where Janiv tried to claim discrimination as female beauticians refused to wax Male genitalia. He lost. However they used the explanation that his motives were racism ( he was an unpleasant chatacter). Canada as far as I am aware does not have the protections we have under the equality act but still some sense prevailed.

Rosie51

Fleurpepper

Galaxy

Not respecting the consent if women with regard to personal care is misogyny.

And the right of men? In most care homes and hospitals, there is no way such a request by a man could be garanteed. Whomever is on rosta does the job, whatever the job is, because they are vetted, trained or qualified to do so.

But yes, things are different where my niece lives- small town, mainly rural area, in a country where being trans has just not been politicised and polarised as has happened in the UK. So the issue of deceiving or lying has just not been relevant- she is a carer, well trained, does a great job, with a smile, humour and kindness. Her genetic gender is just not an issue here. O-one woud even think of requesting same gender only care.

Are you honestly saying because men may not be able to have same sex care it should be denied to women? Isn't that sinking to the lowest level, rather than trying to ensure men can state their preference too?

Please tell us the country where your niece lives and no-one would even think of requesting same sex care?

You truly cannot expect me to tell you where my niece lives. I can assure you that I would not have mentionned her if there was any chance she could be identified. She is not in the UK and not where I live at the moment. A very long way away.

I cannot believe your assertion Glorianny, that my mother, and therefore any other elderly woman, would be left in her own mess because she requested female personnel care. That certainly didn’t happen in her care home.
It is embarrassing enough to be forced to show your genitals to anyone ever. Don’t we teach our children, this is private, it is not to show to other people except in certain circumstances such as doctors etc. And yet elderly people are apparently to be unfazed by a male attendant turning up to cleanup their most private body parts.If they request female attendants apparently they’re transphobic. No. It is more than embarrassing for an elderly woman to need to be cleaned up by anyone, and in doing so be forced to show her genitals, and it is not for anyone to accuse her of being transphobic because of her choice.

Comparing a 90 year old's skin with a baby's really is a joke.
Your sense of humour really baffles me. You call so many serious things 'funny' and think that making elderly people suffer is a 'joke'.

I can't speak for Rosie, (although from what I know of her on here I am sure she wouldn't 'joke' about something like that) but speaking for myself I have no experience of nursing, so if I made a comparison between the skin of one group and another I may well get it wrong, but I wouldn't be joking - and in any case the point is that it shouldn't take long enough for harm to set in to find a suitable carer.

Were you serious when you suggested that the number of male carers (including transwomen) is so high that it would be difficult to find a female one to attend to a client in need before she suffered dangerous levels of discomfort? Is that because so many women don't want to be given personal care by males, because the number of men working in care is high, because a high number of transwomen are attracted to roles that involve personal caring, or something else? Or were you just being spiteful?

You truly cannot expect me to tell you where my niece lives. I can assure you that I would not have mentionned her if there was any chance she could be identified. She is not in the UK and not where I live at the moment. A very long way away.
You’re right FP.
I certainly wouldn’t expect you to give away personal details like that. I found the level of personal details you felt the need to share about someone else, quite disturbing, especially when you imply on your niece’s behalf that your niece would see no harm in being dishonest.

maddyone

I cannot believe your assertion Glorianny, that my mother, and therefore any other elderly woman, would be left in her own mess because she requested female personnel care.

So it would be fair to ask Glorianny if she truly believes what she is saying there

Do you Glorianny?
Do you believe that your pro male stance has gone so far that IYO elderly (or any) female should be left unattended if their care plan requests a female carer?
Have you any figures to support the implication that so few females are working in the care sector that they are outnumbered by males, including TW?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny

Smileless2012

In your example @ 11.21 Glorianny if that's the EW's choice, it is one she is entitled to make.

I never said she wasn't I said it was sometimes the fact and she and her family would have to accept it might happen. Rosie51then questioned it with some very odd comments about the numbers of transwomen.
The real question then is who will be to blame for the damage caused to her skin?

Oh for goodness' sake! Are you really saying that if an elderly woman rejected a male helping her with toileting she would be left for hours without a female coming to see to her? That would suggest a policy of punishment for asserting her own boundaries mattered. Skin damage doesn't happen within minutes of sitting in your own soil or else babies would be in big trouble!

Rosie51 you really don't know much about staffing in care homes, or how delicate elderly skin is do you? Comparing a 90 year old's skin with a baby's really is a joke.
^Incontinence-associated dermatitis (IAD) occurs as a result of prolonged exposure of the skin to faeces or urine, either from incontinence or an inability to cleanse and dry the skin adequately after toileting. It is prevalent in nursing home environments and people receiving long-term care or assistance at home, with rates varying from 5.6% to 50% — the highest incidence rate being in people with faecal incontinence or receiving long-term care^

You know absolutely nothing about me or my experience of hospitals and care homes. Thanks Doodledog for your confidence in me that, unlike Glorianny, I find no humour in this.
Did you miss as a result of prolonged exposure of the skin to faeces or urine, in your quote? And this was your earlier reply to me.

It's nothing to do with numbers. Elderly woman needs the loo-she's immobile, rings for carer. Carer who arrives is transwoman-she's unable to attend patient. She goes to find another carer. Meantime EW goes in her pants and has to in it
This is going to take a prolonged time to find another carer, enough prolonged time to damage skin?

Fleurpepper I really don't see how naming the country is identifying your niece. I live in England, in the SE, can you now identify me? I just wanted to know which country in the world has no women from either the orthodox jewish or muslim communities since it's a religious obligation for them to receive same sex intimate care. Also not a single man or woman who would request same sex intimate care because of a sense of dignity?

Well. I’ve just caught up with this thread. I wish glory Violet or fleur could acknowledge the majority view deserves to be considered, with respect.
I don’t need another patronising lecture gloryanny about feminist history. Your lectures always reflect only your evaluation of the history.
It may be the country where Fleur’s niece lives has a history of trans inclusiveness. It may also be more socially conservative than the uk, so the row hasn’t started yet.

Honestly I didn't say anyone should be left unattended just that they could be. It isn't a question of how many females are working or indeed how many transwomen. It is a question of staff availability, and if an incident occurred when most of the staff were busy (say serving a meal) then there might have to be a wait. The same would probably apply at night.
But there are huge shortages and residents are suffering. This is over a year ago so things have probably got worse
www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/21/staffing-crisis-leaves-many-english-care-home-residents-basic-needs-unmet
The problem of choosing only to be cared for by natal females will only add to that.
It isn't advocating anything to point out realities.

This is for those who think skin damage only occurs after long periods of exposure to urine
.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31274862/

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31274862/

The problem of choosing only to be cared for by natal females will only add to that.
It isn't advocating anything to point out realities.

Yes, the 'problem' of choosing intimate care from women will make waiting times longer, if there is a significant proportion of care staff who are male or trans, and if a significant number of residents prefer single-sex care. If most residents prefer single-sex care, that should be reflected in the staffing.

Are there stats showing that it is in fact the case that there are so many male and M-F trans staff in care homes that they represent a threat to the health of female residents who prefer single-sex care? I'd be surprised if so, but as I said upthread, I may be wrong.

More to the point is the issue of carers pretending to be female and thus denying agency to residents who have a right to make their own decisions regarding their personal care.

Glorianny

This is for those who think skin damage only occurs after long periods of exposure to urine
.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31274862/

You were the one who quoted the passage that mentioned prolonged exposure to begin with. Are you now discrediting your original quote having found a reference more to your liking? Did you read any of the other links on the same page as your latest? They make interesting reading, and pertain to people with urinary and/or bowel incontinence. Your original example is not incontinence as the woman could hold her bladder/bowel and called the first carer. It was the long delay in being able to find a female carer that resulted in her soiling herself.

Rosie51 to G.
Are you now discrediting your original quote having found a reference more to your liking?
It certainly looks like it. 🙂