What is a lesbian?

That was replying to Dickens

And are they they same as the ones who have been active in the “gay erasure” movement.

No such thing as homosexuals. They are denying their need to transition. Apparently🤔

The thing is, FP, that as many on this thread have said repeatedly, we were ok with people like your friends 'living as women'. Even though we don't know what that means, they were doing no harm, and I can't think of a single biological-realist feminist I know who isn't tolerant and inclusive in their thinking and the vast majority are leftie in their politics. I believe that we have one life, and should live it in the best way we can to make us happy, so long as we don't hurt others by doing so, and people like your friends don't sound as though they hurt anyone.

It was when the TRA lot started telling everyone that we had to declare pronouns, that we should be raped to death for not believing their fantasies, that anyone expressing a different view should be cancelled etc that things changed. Feminist meetings have been broken up with violence, women have been prevented from watching a film, for heaven's sake, and a children's author is reviled as the Devil incarnate for saying that people can't change sex. Women lost careers and reputations for not humouring men. If we hadn't fought back, there would be nowhere that women could call our own, even when we are at our most vulnerable. Prisons, hospitals, refuges, even public loos, where (not to put too fine a point on it) we have our knickers down in a space that is often set apart from the rest of the restaurant or bar.

It may well be that 'innocent' transwomen are suffering as a result of Stonewall and its policies, but we have said that that would happen all along, only to be castigated for doing so, even on here. It didn't matter how often we said that we weren't conflating transwomen with rapists, but that if men are allowed into women's spaces some of those who avail themselves of that right will be rapists - we were shouted down, and no doubt will be again - it's been like plaiting fog at times.

It's not fair to people like your friends. It's rubbish. But as a feminist, my first concern is the rights of women, and that means that fighting against TRAs had to take priority. Now that the battle appears to be being won (or at least that defences have been breached - it's too early to celebrate) things might settle down to a point where we can have an adult conversation instead of the No Debate we had before. That would be good, IMO.

As I've said, I don't think that people can ever change sex, and I do take Galaxy's points, but I do see a difference between surgically and hormonally transitioned people and those who expect everyone to bow to their declared 'feelings'. I also believe that it is up to those wanting change to come up with the logistics to let it happen though. As Glorianny keeps asking, how would that be policed etc etc? I don't have the answers, but if the people themselves can make suggestions, I'm sure that most people would be willing to listen. It's not enough to shout that women don't have the solutions though. Men have been telling women to do the (metaphorical) heavy lifting for far too long. I'm not doing it for them, or expecting other women to do it either. Decades of fighting for women's rights have moved us beyond that.

Iam64

Dickens 👏. Another good analysis. I’m not a lesbian but was part of the 70’s women’s movement where were asked to consider declaring ourselves political lesbians. Maybe it’s time to resurrect that discussion. An I too am Spartacus moment

Oh gosh, yes! I was a political lesbian, too... I'd forgotten about that!

I've just been reading an article about the pressure that some lesbians have been under to have sex with trans women, and when they refuse, they are harassed and intimidated by (a minority) of trans women and activists who are not necessarily trans themselves. It's something I've suspected but never mentioned... and never seen anything written on it. Food for thought.

Who are these activists, and what is their agenda?

behalf=behaviour

I don’t accept the argument that a number of posters put forward that it is only the behalf a few.

It is an an aggressive and planned agenda and orchestrated campaign as the events of the past few years clearly show.

I do accept though, as Fleurpepper says, this is a “third” group in her understanding and I would hope that people like her niece firmly separate themselves from it. After all, as a transitioned woman her niece must also be uneasy at the encroachment upon women’s lives by this third group.

It's possible for an atheist to respect someones religion without saying oh yes there is a God, its possible to respect trans people without agreeing that men can become women.

That was to Mollygrow btw, posts crossed.

I don't know the answer, at all- all I am trying to do is to say to vilify and demonise one group of people, because of a few, is not the solution.

What the solution is- I honestly do not know. But let's keep minds open.

I don't know- but let's not pretend one group is more worthy of respect and tolerance than another- despite the disgusting antics of a 3rd group.

Fleurpepper

However, what I am saying, is that because what you say is correct- men who have so rejected all those male stereotypes, the violence, control, and even the genitalia that represent them- and have gone through the long, difficult and painful process of getting rid and change- should be punished even further because of those b*st*rds.

I hoped it was clear that I wasn't talking about those, like the men you mentioned in your posts, but the activists who seem to be a completely different breed.

I, too, have a fairly close TW friend (we met through a shared interest) who is a lovely person.

Fleurpepper

Mollygro 'Do you think Lesbians should be obliged to accept what they perceive as heterosexual relationships totally against their clear choice, having suffered for so many years the pain and indignity of having to hide their sexuality?'

I am absolutely sure you know that this is NOT what I am saying. However, why respect and emphasise for one kind of pain and 'indignity', and not another?

But that’s precisely what I’m saying. Why should one group-e.g. fully transitioned TIM’s choice be more valid or worthy of respect than another e.g. Lesbians. And if the two ‘choices’ are in direct opposition of one another, what then?

Dickens 👏. Another good analysis. I’m not a lesbian but was part of the 70’s women’s movement where were asked to consider declaring ourselves political lesbians. Maybe it’s time to resurrect that discussion. An I too am Spartacus moment

Dickens

Lesbians are the last bastion of resistance to TW activists.

They have succeeded in getting politicians, businesses, the NHS, and other organisations on their side, demanding 'no debate' and have engineered it so that any woman wanting to debate the issue from her angle, as a woman, is at risk of losing her job, or being 'cancelled'. They also have the right to label anyone who does not wholly agree that TWAW as TERFS - and threaten them in public holding various placards indicating what they would like to do to these TERFS... "decapitate" was one method of 'resistance'.

Lesbians are not attracted by the male anatomy, the male psyche, the male 'anything', and understandably reject TW with male genitalia. A huge challenge to the male ego, whether it's outwardly covered in a dress or Lycra pants.

It is, at its roots, male violence against women, it is the typical misogynist bullying and goading of women who have refused their advances. They will not accept that women, lesbian or straight, have spaces in which they are not allowed. TW activists especially those with intact genitalia (the majority) are not women, they are men who don't actually like women, and they've found a 'new' and novel way of extending their dislike.

<<< takes cover >>>>>

why take cover. I for one totally agree.

However, what I am saying, is that because what you say is correct- men who have so rejected all those male stereotypes, the violence, control, and even the genitalia that represent them- and have gone through the long, difficult and painful process of getting rid and change- should be punished even further because of those b*st*rds.

Mollygro 'Do you think Lesbians should be obliged to accept what they perceive as heterosexual relationships totally against their clear choice, having suffered for so many years the pain and indignity of having to hide their sexuality?'

I am absolutely sure you know that this is NOT what I am saying. However, why respect and emphasise for one kind of pain and 'indignity', and not another?

Lesbians are the last bastion of resistance to TW activists.

They have succeeded in getting politicians, businesses, the NHS, and other organisations on their side, demanding 'no debate' and have engineered it so that any woman wanting to debate the issue from her angle, as a woman, is at risk of losing her job, or being 'cancelled'. They also have the right to label anyone who does not wholly agree that TWAW as TERFS - and threaten them in public holding various placards indicating what they would like to do to these TERFS... "decapitate" was one method of 'resistance'.

Lesbians are not attracted by the male anatomy, the male psyche, the male 'anything', and understandably reject TW with male genitalia. A huge challenge to the male ego, whether it's outwardly covered in a dress or Lycra pants.

It is, at its roots, male violence against women, it is the typical misogynist bullying and goading of women who have refused their advances. They will not accept that women, lesbian or straight, have spaces in which they are not allowed. TW activists especially those with intact genitalia (the majority) are not women, they are men who don't actually like women, and they've found a 'new' and novel way of extending their dislike.

<<< takes cover >>>>>

Well, thank goodness for that!

MissChateline thank you for the posts from your perspective.

Yes, I totally understand this. And nobody would ever force you to.

“ Lesbians choose to have relationships with females. They should not be pressured into accepting relationships with males no matter how thoroughly transitioned they have been. It should be a choice. ”
As a lesbian or as a woman, I would not be pressured into having a relationship with anyone I didn’t want.
As a lesbian I would never consider having a relationship with a man who had had his penis removed, was taking drugs or had breast augmentation. Because as far as I’m concerned I would be in relationship with a man.

^So are you saying that transgender people, who have gone through the full reversal should always be considered as the sex they were born with, be it male or female-
totally against their clear choice, having suffered for so many years and the pain of transition.^

Lesbians choose to have relationships with females. They should not be pressured into accepting relationships with males no matter how thoroughly transitioned they have been. It should be a choice.
Male + female is heterosexual.
If a male so desperately wants a sexual relationship with a female then that’s a heterosexual relationship which he could have without transitioning.
Do you think Lesbians should be obliged to accept what they perceive as heterosexual relationships totally against their clear choice, having suffered for so many years the pain and indignity of having to hide their sexuality?

GrannyGravy13

Doodledog good post 17.11

Yes, it is an excellent post.

Thank you Galaxy and Iam64.

Elegran

*Fleurppepper*. I know that you are passionate about this and loyal to your friends, but you are attacking posters for something they have not sinned in. You have said yourself that you agree with the theme of this thread, that a very obviously and aggressively still-male trans person should not have turned up at a lesbian dating event and demanded to be a part of it.

No-oneis denying trans people their chance to live their lives as they think that those who were born in the gender that they wish that they were, and no-one wants to condemn them to stay as they do not wish to be or to suffer so much that they commit suicide. You have invented for yourself that cruel denial and projected it onto people who are merely stating a biological fact - that transgender people, however much they are considered in everyday life as the gender they choose, are still biologically the sex (not gender) they were previously.

Fleurpepper, in answer to your question at 17.07 today, of course we agree that there is no comparison between people like your relative who fully transitioned and the man in female clothes that displayed his erect penis who attended an event for lesbians.
Like you, I see this as complex, we are all trying to support trans people without losing safe women only spaces.

It is very complex FP and I think it's important to talk about, I really appreciate you talking about this.

That criteria would exclude most transwomen and I am not sure we should be basing access to womens spaces on a procedure which is risky and involves long term health implications. Also I think it creates a situation where womens boundaries are dependent on mens feelings and actions, I have no interest in what men may or may not have done to their body when I am in say a single sex changing room.

Galaxy

I am not having a go at you FP, reading that back that sounded unnecessarily confrontational from me. I just mean we cant have a criteria of nice men are allowed in womens spaces.

I understand you are not having a go. I am truly trying to get my head around the whole subject, which is so so complex.

A fully transitioned woman who looks like a woman will access female toilets, no-one will know. And in countries were it is allowed to change your name officially after full transition- will be allowed to work as females, in care homes, hospitals, etc. and be very good at it, and cannot be discriminated against.

I can understand why what I am saying is controversial for many, totally. I'd hope that we can agree that a man in lycra with a visible erection, hell bent on trouble at a lesbian only event- should not be mixed up and confused with those I have described above.

Should my niece turned out at such an event- no-one would ever notice anyhow.