What is a lesbian?

Astute observation Elegran.
After all, if they had planned to transition legally from human men to human women at a time when women did not have the vote, they would voted first to retain that right for themselves.

To equate trans people who have provable differences in their genes and arguably (research continues), differences in their development in the womb... With people's fetishes is actually really quite low.

This thread has disintegrated into just laughingly insulting trans people who never asked to have gender dysphoria by comparison to very different situations

I am out, cannot read this

You're the one who wanted to move from more serious discussion to 'chat'.

Before you go - what 'provable differences in their genes' do transpeople have?

Trans women have been found to have a high frequency of a particular DNA variant of 4 genes that would alter sex hormone signalling while they developed in the womb. (Source The Conversation.com)

Whether male/female brains are meaningfully different is itself controversial and inconclusive. Studies of twins seems to suggest genetic variation does to a certain extent affect gender identity and a small number of regions in the genome are found to be associated with these traits. (source pged.org).

This of course relates to gender dysphoria which no one here or on other threads as far as I can recall, has denied exists.

I think it has been shown somewhere (I'm sorry, I can't remember where) that the pervcentage of people wishing to change their gender who actually have those genetic anomalies is very very small. The vast majority of transgender people are genes that are completely typical for their sex.

There shouldn't have been a V in percentage - it is next to the C on the keyboard and must have been pressed at the same time.

VS, for those who find the constant reiteration of men can be women, and as such are entitled to anything females have is just as laughable, though I find your choice of that word strange.

*For the nth time, the trans who are causing the problems are not representative of all trans, but since they are the ones who make the headlines, along with their TRA they contribute to the public view of TW.
Like most posters on here, I have no problem with the trans, who as is frequently pointed out, have lived and are living a blameless, non-confrontational life.
As a feminist, I do have a problem with those TW whose cheating and lying are detrimental to females. This is true whether it’s demanding the right to attend lesbian speed dating where males have been specifically asked not to attend, or pretending to be female when a female attendant has been asked for, or entering female sports in order to deny females the medals they deserve.

VS @ 11:11 26.8.23
I am out, cannot read this
Bye VS

My post was an illustrative example. Any direct equating of one with another is in the eye of the reader, but if anyone feels the cap fits, they are free to apply it wherever they think it should go.

This of course relates to gender dysphoria which no one here or on other threads as far as I can recall, has denied exists.
I don't deny that GD exists, but my understanding is that it is vanishingly rare. I dug up some stats a while ago for another thread, and it was something like one in 24000 children - the instances are significantly lower in older age groups. This means that on average there might be one child with it in every 15 or so large secondary schools, so the average teacher is very unlikely to come across a sufferer in the course of a career. The fact that time is given over to training courses (however superficial) about this when conditions such as Dyslexia or ADHD that have a direct impact on the ability to learn is testament to the power of the trans lobby.

I’m waiting for your stats to be carpet bombed Doodledog. They definitely fit with the (long) lived experience of the majority posting here.
It’s all gone a bit silly

Iam64

I’m waiting for your stats to be carpet bombed Doodledog. They definitely fit with the (long) lived experience of the majority posting here.
It’s all gone a bit silly

This is from Psychiatric Times:
The prevalence of a DSM-5 gender dysphoria diagnosis has never been studied in systematic population-based studies in adolescents and only estimates based on referrals to adult gender identity services are available. A meta-analysis found this prevalence to be 4.6 per 100,000.

So that equates to 0.0046% of adolescents with a diagnosis or referral - a tiny number. The numbers of children self-identifying as having gender confusion are much higher, which is interesting, as there is also an identified (but not fully understood) link with Autism.

I have absolutely no qualifications in this area, but I wonder as a lay person whether that is because of the need for many people with Autism to have explanations for things, which, coupled with the current trend for reversing 'gender' non-specificity translates to 'if I am a boy who likes 'girly' things I must be in the wrong body'. That may be way wide of the mark, but it is one possible explanation. As we've said on this thread, 20 years ago there was far more tolerance of children choosing to ignore gender stereotypes, and far fewer instances of gender dysmorphia. Of course there were no training courses or Stonewall Diversity Champion scores back then either, so who knows.

I've posted this image before from Mermaids in their early days.

The highlighted paragraph:

Gender Identity Disorders in infancy, childhood and adolescence are complex and have varied causes: in the majority of cases the eventual outcome will be homosexuality or bisexuality, but often there will be a heterosexual outcome as some gender issues can be caused by a bereavement, a dysfunctional family life, or (rarely) by abuse. Only a small proportion of cases will result in a transsexual outcome.

How times changed! Latterly they advocated affirmation, binders, puberty blockers etc for all the children.

Thanks Doodle and Rosie. I’m at ease with the info you posted, more, I welcome it.
I’m genuinely fearful we are exacerbating emotional/psychological difficulties by doing as the Tavistock did - accepting the presenting problem of a child.

Children with ASD have never felt they fitted in because they don’t. That doesn’t mean the majority need dangerous physical surgery or drugs at an age when their brains are still developing
Saying this is not trans phobic.

Where children are concerned, I think there should be research into what drives adults to encourage them towards something that was unheard of not long ago. There has to be some sort of dynamic that drives it.

It's probably different from whatever it is that is behind the number of adults 'identifying' into the opposite sex themselves, but again, it would be good if researchers had the academic freedom to look into it. If it were not for the screams of 'phobia' and threats of cancellation, a phenomenon as widespread and unprecedented as this one would have been thoroughly researched by now.

I hope that research is happening Doodle. The family court finds itself involved in bitter disputes between separated parents where gender id is central

Iam64

I hope that research is happening Doodle. The family court finds itself involved in bitter disputes between separated parents where gender id is central

That doesn't sound ideal, as family courts have had a lot of bad press because of the secrecy. I can't comment on whether that is necessary in normal circumstances or not, but secrecy is not what is needed here - we need a bright light shining on the whole 'gender' industry.

we need a bright light shining on the whole 'gender' industry indeed we do Doodledog.

Reading the highlighted paragraph from the Mermaids literature saddened me Rosie. Why and how did that common sense go out of the window, and how much irreversible damage has been done because it has?

The desire to form a support group Mermaids was another thing that went badly wrong, eventually turning from supporting those who had concerns, to advocating harmful and often irreversible treatment instead.

The accusations of secrecy are shouted loudest by the daily Mail. A lot of work has been done on how to make the Famiky Courts more open. Journalists were allowed into some courts from last year I think) providing they printed nothing that could identify children.
Children involved in proceedings were widely consulted. They were opposed to their confidentiality being breached.
That’s the key, the hearings are confidential - secrecy is a loaded word

Iam64

The accusations of secrecy are shouted loudest by the daily Mail. A lot of work has been done on how to make the Famiky Courts more open. Journalists were allowed into some courts from last year I think) providing they printed nothing that could identify children.
Children involved in proceedings were widely consulted. They were opposed to their confidentiality being breached.
That’s the key, the hearings are confidential - secrecy is a loaded word

Yes, I don't pretend to know anything about that side of things, and wasn't casting aspersions at all; but I do feel that No Debate and the fact that until recently many people were not aware of the extent of the reach of Stonewall has got us to where we are now. A much more open debate is needed, with no threats of repercussions for people speaking out. As an example, it would be a brave department that spearheaded research into the things I mentioned above. Previously respected academics have already lost their careers and reputations simply for saying what they thought. That needs to stop, so that all aspects of the subject can be properly researched with no restrictions. Family courts, and anyone with information about how the gender issue impacts on people should have an input, obviously with data anonymised.

Absolutely agree. I’m aware of One case where the Judgement was published where residence was changed after a parent was found to be influencing a child to dress re gender

LGB alliance just released statement, the pub chain have reinstated the event, agreeing that it is within the law to hold a women only event, excluding men. This will be one of the cases that helps support future women only events.

Galaxy

LGB alliance just released statement, the pub chain have reinstated the event, agreeing that it is within the law to hold a women only event, excluding men. This will be one of the cases that helps support future women only events.

Excellent. So any doubts that there may have been about the organiser not acting legally have been completely squashed.

I hope that this means that she has Glorianny's support now, as she (G) did say that if the organiser had acted within the law that support would be there.

There does seem to be a snowball growing, which is good news. The more cases there are that create precedents the better, as they may deter those who deliberately misinterpret the legal situation to suit their prejudices.

I think we shouldnt underestimate the courage it takes for these women to withstand the social media storm, the threats etc.
The advice for venues/organisations from the alliance is to take legal advice before caving into pressure from lobby groups.

Mollygo

*Astute observation Elegran.*
^After all, if they had planned to transition legally from human men to human women at a time when women did not have the vote, they would voted first to retain that right for themselves.^

Just a small comment that all men did not have the vote until 1918, when some women were given it as well.
The concept that all men have always had privilege is completely wrong. The restrictions were complicated, but basically working class men who did not rent or own property did not have the vote.