What is a lesbian?

My pussy cats are right wing extremists who like to bully small creatures. I think they might be members of the Kruel Kats Klan, it wouldn’t be good to give them voting rites. They have a ginger furred enemy called Donald, though, who beats them up and bites them so maybe there’s hope for them. They’re friends with a very old grey cat called Joe but he’s a bit past it now.

Elegran!!!
Of course we wouldn’t be able to distinguish them from real cats because they would dress as cats and behave in their perceived manner of cat behaviour, hopefully not including cat’s propensity for slipping into the homes of other cats and eating the food therein.
The voting problem would not arise as cats can’t vote . . . Or would this new group then demand human rights?

And would we then extend the right to vote to all cats? And call ordinary people ciscats, to distinguish them from the transcats - it being impossible, of course, to just refer to the ones without tails (unless they came from the Isle of Man) as just people.

Elegran😹😻🙀

If a law were passed making it legal for someone who really believed against the biological evidence - that they were a cat, and that anyone who said they were actually a homo sapiens was mis-speciesing them, would that make them a bona fide member of felis catus?

Rosie51

Flat earthers have never convinced the planet to change shape 🤣🤣🤣

That’s a good thought to go to sleep with. 👏👏👏

Flat earthers have never convinced the planet to change shape 🤣🤣🤣

Science doesn't care whether you believe in it or not, it alters not one jot of truth!

Glorianny

It really is irrelevant what your beliefs are, if you think a transwoman is lying or any other factor you wish to bring in.

It really is irrelevant what your beliefs or any other factor you wish to bring in are either Glorianny

If a TW claims to be female, he’s lying. If a TW says he’s not male, he’s lying.
It doesn’t matter whether I or you think it or not, it’s a fact.

Mollygo

Fleurpepper

A matter of interpretation. Some will see it that way. Some will not. The law says she is legally a woman.

Fleurpepper, It’s not interpretation, it’s fact.
You cannot change sex, ergo he is male.
Reiterating the lie that you can change sex doesn’t make it true.

Exactly Mollygo
Transwomen are as much at risk of prostate cancer as any other male. The prostate isn't removed even during genital reconstruction because the side effect risks are too great. If transwomen fail to own their male biology it could have disastrous consequences. You cannot change your biological sex.

Fleurpepper

A matter of interpretation. Some will see it that way. Some will not. The law says she is legally a woman.

Fleurpepper, It’s not interpretation, it’s fact.
You cannot change sex, ergo he is male.
Reiterating the lie that you can change sex doesn’t make it true.

Glorianny

It really is irrelevant what your beliefs are, if you think a transwoman is lying or any other factor you wish to bring in.
If you won't accept care from a transperson would you be prepared to wait?
And how far do you take your women only demands.?
Most surgeons are male would you let one operate on you?

Is that addressed to me? I don’t know if I would refuse care from a transwoman - probably not, but my feelings are not the point. What I would do is insist on the right of anyone for whom I might be advocating to have her views respected, and that would include the right to be told whether someone ‘passing’ as female was, in fact, male if it mattered to her. If exercising that right meant that she was made to suffer I would complain at the highest level, as I would have ensured that clients would be treated with respect before letting a loved one go into the home in the first place.

A surgeon does not carry out intimate operations alone with a patient - that is not a fair comparison - and again, I doubt if I would mind anyway. What does it matter what I would do? This is not about me. It’s about people having agency and not having their feelings walked all over by people telling them that their feelings are wrong.

I've had male surgeons, a male gynaecologist, male GP, and in every case I consented to be treated by them. However, if I wanted intimate personal care to be carried out by a female that too would be by my consent. If I was told that only males including transwomen were available then I'd have to make my choice at that time. I'll admit to being amazed that men will be the doominant workforce in the care sector imminently, given their scarcity at present.

Fleurpepper I do hope your niece is aware that while legally a woman, her biology remains absolutely male with its attendant male medical risks. At some point the answer to the question "are you male" may require an honest "yes".

Ginger even. I need to find another example.

The law is very clear I am afraid, there are cases when transwomen can be excluded from womens spaces, it why sport is able to exclude them but couldnt exclude women with gonger hair for example.

It really is irrelevant what your beliefs are, if you think a transwoman is lying or any other factor you wish to bring in.
If you won't accept care from a transperson would you be prepared to wait?
And how far do you take your women only demands.?
Most surgeons are male would you let one operate on you?

A matter of interpretation. Some will see it that way. Some will not. The law says she is legally a woman.

Not at all what I said. She would not see it as being dishonest at all, as he is legally and officially a woman.

But a male one, because whichever country you’re in, you can it change your biological sex, so the title woman doesn’t really count. If he was asked if he was male, and said no, that’s still dishonest.

Glorianny

Honestly if only you could stop picking at things and look at something objectively we might have an interesting discussion. There will most likely be more and more people who are transgender or non-binary working in the care sector in the future. Insisting that only natal women provide care for you could impact on the quality of care you receive. Are you happy with that?
How far will you take this demand? No trans doctors? No trans surgeons? The last would be difficult to comply with.

honestly if only you could stop picking at things and look at something objectively we might have an interesting discussion

Oh the irony

Glorianny

Honestly if only you could stop picking at things and look at something objectively we might have an interesting discussion. There will most likely be more and more people who are transgender or non-binary working in the care sector in the future. Insisting that only natal women provide care for you could impact on the quality of care you receive. Are you happy with that?
How far will you take this demand? No trans doctors? No trans surgeons? The last would be difficult to comply with.

It is not 'picking at things' to question the right of staff to lie about their sex in order to deceive clients into accepting care that they may otherwise reject.

It is also reasonable to expect that the wishes of clients are taken into account when staff are hired. As has been pointed out, there are numerous other lines of work that do not involve personal or intimate care - it would make sense for transpeople to seek careers that don't bring them into conflict with the wishes or religious obligations of clients.

We still haven't seen any stats that show that there is, in fact, a problem - you have told us that clients objecting to personal care from men or transwomen are putting themselves at risk. This has not been backed up in any way, but you ask us if we are happy with it - how are we supposed to answer that unless we are shown the extent of the problem (if one exists).

It is undeniably the case that there are staff shortages in the care sector, but I have seen nothing that suggests that the sex or 'gender' balance between staff and clients is responsible, which is why I am asking on what you are basing your claims.

Mollygo

^You truly cannot expect me to tell you where my niece lives. I can assure you that I would not have mentionned her if there was any chance she could be identified. She is not in the UK and not where I live at the moment. A very long way away.^
You’re right FP.
*I certainly wouldn’t expect you to give away personal details like that. I found the level of personal details you felt the need to share about someone else, quite disturbing, especially when you imply on your niece’s behalf that your niece would see no harm in being dishonest.*

Not at all what I said. She would not see it as being dishonest at all, as he is legally and officially a woman.

Honestly if only you could stop picking at things and look at something objectively we might have an interesting discussion. There will most likely be more and more people who are transgender or non-binary working in the care sector in the future. Insisting that only natal women provide care for you could impact on the quality of care you receive. Are you happy with that?
How far will you take this demand? No trans doctors? No trans surgeons? The last would be difficult to comply with.

Rosie51 to G.
Are you now discrediting your original quote having found a reference more to your liking?
It certainly looks like it. 🙂

Glorianny

This is for those who think skin damage only occurs after long periods of exposure to urine
.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31274862/

You were the one who quoted the passage that mentioned prolonged exposure to begin with. Are you now discrediting your original quote having found a reference more to your liking? Did you read any of the other links on the same page as your latest? They make interesting reading, and pertain to people with urinary and/or bowel incontinence. Your original example is not incontinence as the woman could hold her bladder/bowel and called the first carer. It was the long delay in being able to find a female carer that resulted in her soiling herself.

The problem of choosing only to be cared for by natal females will only add to that.
It isn't advocating anything to point out realities.

Yes, the 'problem' of choosing intimate care from women will make waiting times longer, if there is a significant proportion of care staff who are male or trans, and if a significant number of residents prefer single-sex care. If most residents prefer single-sex care, that should be reflected in the staffing.

Are there stats showing that it is in fact the case that there are so many male and M-F trans staff in care homes that they represent a threat to the health of female residents who prefer single-sex care? I'd be surprised if so, but as I said upthread, I may be wrong.

More to the point is the issue of carers pretending to be female and thus denying agency to residents who have a right to make their own decisions regarding their personal care.