What is a lesbian?

Mollygo

It really comes down to who is allowed a choice.
Lesbians, who by definition, choose to have sexual relationships only with females,
or males whether or not they claim to be women who feel that lesbians should accommodate their demands.
In our daily lives, how many of us whether gay, straight, trans or bi would happy to be obliged to do things that go against our natural instincts or what we know to be right, just because someone else wants us to do so?

Lesbians, who by definition, choose to have sexual relationships only with females, or males whether or not they claim to be women who feel that lesbians should accommodate their demands.

Lesbians, who by definition, choose to have sexual relationships only with females, or males whether or not they claim to be women who feel that lesbians should accommodate their demands.

... posted too soon.

How can anyone believe that another human being should accommodate their sexual needs and, further, why do we even ever have to explain the reason why we don't want sex with someone?

Our bodies are sacrosanct - no one has a right to them. Nor do they have the right to ask why we don't want them to touch us.

Nor should we have to explain why we might find a man walking around in front of a social gathering with his erect penis on display unacceptable.

Callistemon21

Nor should we have to explain why we might find a man walking around in front of a social gathering with his erect penis on display unacceptable.

Quite.

I would question the rationality of mind of anyone who believes it needs to be explained.

Recent events are astounding and shocking for those of us who support women’s safe spaces and women’s right to decide who they have sex or spend time with.
When we established Women’s Refuges, when domestic abuse was finally recognised as a serious crime that damaged children as well as their mothers - when our brothers/partners/male friends began and continued to support feminism - well I naively believed things were improving

Iam64

Recent events are astounding and shocking for those of us who support women’s safe spaces and women’s right to decide who they have sex or spend time with.
When we established Women’s Refuges, when domestic abuse was finally recognised as a serious crime that damaged children as well as their mothers - when our brothers/partners/male friends began and continued to support feminism - well I naively believed things were improving

That is true, but what subsequently emerged and led to the assessment of anyone wanting to access a woman's refuge was that some women were just as dangerous to other women as men. The numbers of women damaged before proper risk assessment was brought in have never been properly assessed, what is certain is that rigorous risk assessment was and continues to be the best protection any Refuge can offer to any woman.

I have worked prior to retiring 8 years ago in the women’s refuge, probation and rehabilitation area. For many years violence within lesbian relationships was known about but rarely acknowledged. In all my time working as as a probation court officer did I have to deal with one case.

Men forcing women to have sex with them. - isn't that rape?

In reference to female domestic violence refuges, lesbians going there to claim refuge are still female. They, no more than the other females there would want the possibility of facing males.
Males who attempt to infiltrate female refuges are automatically threatening, whether physically violent or by their fraudulent attempts to bypass a system set up to protect females.

Iam64

Recent events are astounding and shocking for those of us who support women’s safe spaces and women’s right to decide who they have sex or spend time with.
When we established Women’s Refuges, when domestic abuse was finally recognised as a serious crime that damaged children as well as their mothers - when our brothers/partners/male friends began and continued to support feminism - well I naively believed things were improving

It's the 'backlash'. A fight back against "feminisation" - we are, apparently, "feminazis", and we've caused the "Men-Going-Their-Own-Way" movement (as if men hadn't always gone 'their own way' LOL) and forced them to take the Red Pill.

I think these (minority thank goodness) TWAs are a branch of that 'movement'.

... well I naively believed things were improving

... you didn't really think we were going to get away with it, did you?

The fact that some feminists just seem to have discovered the problem is quite amusing.
Which feminists are these? Are we talking about 'some people', or is there a specific group you are referring to?

As always with feminist issues a democratic vote is the only real solution
I don't understand this. Feminism is a school of thought - a philosophy if you like. How can there be a democratic vote to decide what people think? Most people don't need to be told how to feel, or have the 'authority' of a named group to tell them what rules to follow. A vote on what to think just doesn't make sense.

I agree that risk assessment is important to refuges, but I don't know what that has to do with admitting male-bodied people. By all means refuse entry to women likely to be violent, but doing that doesn't mean that men should be admitted. They are supposed to be as the name says - refuges for women who have been abused, usually by men. The fact that some have been abused by other women doesn't lessen that fact.

Any risk assessment would eliminate any male automatically, because any male is a potential risk to women by virtue of their superior strength.

Physical compulsion is the one thing that cannot be resisted and which can compel others against their will.

So I would question that rigorous assessment has been in place in women’s refuges where males have been admitted. Rigour has bowed down to ideology.

Absolutely.

some women were just as dangerous to other women as men were
Glorianny, between April 2020-March 2021, 177 were murdered in England and Wales. Of these 109 were killed by a man and 10 by a woman. (ONS). It’s long been acknowledged that on average, 2 women each week are killed by a current or former partner , usually a man. It’s possible to recognise some women are violent, aggressive, controlling and dangerous without losing sight of the fact those behaviours are much more likely to be evident in men.

And - thanks Lathyrus for your post

some women were just as dangerous to other women as men

Why is this always produced to counter the reason for not allowing males into female refuges?

The other day she told us she had been physically abused by her step father at a young age which continued until her mother divorced him following avvery threatening harassing situation. She thinks this is why she is gay and claims this to be the case for many lesbians

Hmm. I think this is dangerously anecdotal and needs care ...her experience is her experience but without a full research programme then probably best this doesnt become a "fact" by repetition!

Madgran77

*The other day she told us she had been physically abused by her step father at a young age which continued until her mother divorced him following avvery threatening harassing situation. She thinks this is why she is gay and claims this to be the case for many lesbians*

Hmm. I think this is dangerously anecdotal and needs care ...her experience is her experience but without a full research programme then probably best this doesnt become a "fact" by repetition!

Hmm. I think this is dangerously anecdotal and needs care ...her experience is her experience but without a full research programme then probably best this doesnt become a "fact" by repetition!

Agree!

It's really rather dangerous - to lesbians - to assume that there has to be a reason for them preferring women to men - insinuating that 'something went wrong' and being gay is a condition brought on by some fault-line in their environment, rather than that they have a natural disposition towards women which is inherent in their make-up.

Perhaps that's always produced to counter the reason for not allowing males into female refuges Mollygo because there's no logical reason for allowing them into refuges for females.

Of course women can be violent but that has absolutely nothing to do with women escaping domestic abuse not wanting biological males sharing their refuge.

Mollygo

^some women were just as dangerous to other women as men^

Why is this always produced to counter the reason for not allowing males into female refuges?

It’s almost as though women’s needs don’t matter as much as men’s wants, isn’t it?

The same male-centric arguments are put forward for housing men in women’s prisons, and they are equally specious.

There are a few dangerous women, and they should be denied access to refuges, and closely monitored in prisons, but their existence is not a reason for putting the majority of women in even more danger- the logic doesn’t stand up unless you are looking for ways to put men first.

And if females are so dangerous presumably there is no need for transwomen to be in female toilets.

Mollygo

^some women were just as dangerous to other women as men^

Why is this always produced to counter the reason for not allowing males into female refuges?

It's the inevitable whataboutery fallacious argument that is brought forward whenever a topic - whatever it is - is being discussed and certain individuals don't agree with the statistical evidence or consensus of opinion.

It's particularly prevalent on SM sites where domestic violence perpetrated by men on women is being discussed. The overwhelming evidence is available for anyone to find - yet along come the (usually) men, reminding everyone that women can be just as violent, hinting also that the figures are not correct and that somehow they've been skewed in favour of women being the victims when all along everyone knows that it's the menz! The accusations of misandry then follow, and before long, the thread will be replete with the 'real' victims bleating on about how feminists have changed men's roles in society to the extent that they now have no option but to rebel, and we should more or less accept that their frustration will spill over into violence. Truly, this is what happens, over and over again.

Of course there are misandrists, and of course women can be violent and abuse their spouses or male family members. But history is choc full of crimes, violent sexual crimes, committed by men against women - in war, in the street, in the home, and in various institutions and businesses.

This 'women can be violent too' argument does not hold water when we are discussing the historical and documented violence which is committed against women by men. I'm not downplaying it at all - my OH was previously married to a violent woman and what he suffered was horrendous. And it's something that many men I suspect don't speak out about - not because women are unsympathetic, but because there's an awful lot of men who will show little empathy and understanding towards them. Look on any SM site when a woman has sexually abused a man, or a teacher has abused a young boy... there are lots of comments from men making a joke of it, suggesting that the male in question was "lucky"... "I wish she'd been my teacher, ha, ha"... "lucky bloke, hope he filled his boots", etc, etc. In that kind of environment, what man would want to stick his neck out? Maybe that is why violence against men by women is under-acknowledged?

The suggestion that lesbian’s are the result of sexual abuse in childhood by men isn’t born out by any research. It’s in the same category as the old suggestion that gay men were homosexual because of over bearing mothers

Lesbians and gay men are born, not made

It’s a very odd philosophy that thinks that because some women have been known to be violent in a refuge that means men should be given the same opportunity.

Intersectional equality I guess🤔

Lathyrus 😉