What is a lesbian?

I have gone down a hell of a rabbit hole there. I need coffee

Jeremy Corbyn providing my personal care or Eddie Izzard, exactly the same to me.

Galaxy

No people generally in care dont thankfully work like that maddy. As I say I cant speak for elderly care mine was/is young people with learning disabilities. Many of us understand the importance of dignity and consent with regard to personal care.

Thank you Galaxy.
It’s exactly this.

Glorianny
My mother wasn’t frightened of transwomen. She didn’t want men taking care of her personal needs. She was asked when admitted to the home and as I was there I heard her response. She wasn’t frightened, she didn’t want. It’s different.

Not wanting to receive personal care from someone whose trans gender does not necessarily equate to a fear of trans gender.

No it's not we dont hold the same beliefs as you. I am not frightened of transpeople dont be ridiculous.

Not respecting the consent if women with regard to personal care is misogyny.

Many of us understand the importance of dignity and consent with regard to personal care.
And this is the crux of the matter.

As a tourist, if I visit places of worship I cover up or remove my shoes and am generally respectful of the fact that others are there to pray, regardless of my own beliefs or lack of them. Being inclusive means taking on board that not everyone will think like you.

maddyone

Try telling that Glorianny to a 94 year old lady who is spending the last months of her life in a care home because she is old, she can no longer walk, she’s losing interest in life because she can do so little for herself, she has little dignity left as all her physical needs have to be attended to by other people, she knows she’s slowly dying, she’s lost interest in food, her world has reduced to her room and the people who attend to her and her visitors.

‘Mother, you’re transphobic. You need to allow that transwoman to clean your personal parts.’

It’s unbelievable! That was my mother, but her care home respected her desire for personal care to be provided only by women so no one needed to tell she was transphobic. It’s a good job because I’m not sure she would have understood if they did.

Why would I tell them that?
I don't go round telling people who are scared of spiders "You are arachnophobic."
But it's the right word for it.
My 94 year old mother in a hospital, suffering from a broken pelvis said the person who was gentlest, and showed her the most consideration, when he showered her ,was the ward sister-a man.
People are different.
But fear of a trans person is transphobia.

No people generally in care dont thankfully work like that maddy. As I say I cant speak for elderly care mine was/is young people with learning disabilities. Many of us understand the importance of dignity and consent with regard to personal care.

I would have been more than prepared to stand up extremely strongly to any care home that wouldn’t allow my mother her personal choice. I would have been very annoyed about anyone trying to disrespect her personal choices at that stage in her life. Luckily it wasn’t the case.

We are very lucky in this country with regard to the equality act, other countries arent so lucky.

If women are told to receive personal care from men it will just go through the courts, its irritating but it's what's had to happen with regard to other issues.

We should though, give equal respect to different belief systems. We should not just brush aside as irellevent religious strictures because we may not be religious ourselves.
More than one religion forbids women to have intimate contact with men outside their family and this deserves to be respected and accomodated.
Respect should go both ways.

I have worked and managed care (not for the elderly) for a long time, we would always ensure same sex care with regard to women. And actually generally for men as we were lucky in that we quite unusually had a relatively high number of Male staff.

Try telling that Glorianny to a 94 year old lady who is spending the last months of her life in a care home because she is old, she can no longer walk, she’s losing interest in life because she can do so little for herself, she has little dignity left as all her physical needs have to be attended to by other people, she knows she’s slowly dying, she’s lost interest in food, her world has reduced to her room and the people who attend to her and her visitors.

‘Mother, you’re transphobic. You need to allow that transwoman to clean your personal parts.’

It’s unbelievable! That was my mother, but her care home respected her desire for personal care to be provided only by women so no one needed to tell she was transphobic. It’s a good job because I’m not sure she would have understood if they did.

No it's not transphobic, unless you believe the law is transphobic. It applies to all men, so I dont want personal care from a man whether he us short tall or whatever feelings he has. My boundaries are not dependent on what men feel.

I don't believe they are lying Mollygo

You know this

I think you just want to associate lying with trans people to make them appear bad

Transwomen are treated in the real world just as natal women are, and in some cases suffer much more.
The perpetual "they are male", "they remain men" simply supports and justifies the abuse they receive.
There are very few people in my life whose sex I have real evidence of. Most of the people I know and meet are designated by gender, that is mostly appearance, sometimes by a personal statement and sometimes by the pronoun they choose.
If someone wishes to stipulate that they only wish to receive care from a natal woman they are entitled to do so. But they should realise that they might have to wait for that care. And asking for such care is transphobic, what else could it be?
Someone scared of spiders is arachnaphobic
Someone who is afraid of being treated by trans people is transphobic

There is nothing feminist about lying to women on the grounds that they have ‘no need’ to be told the truth.

As I say, we have no way of knowing how many women would object to having personal care carried out by men, but they have a right to know and to make an informed choice. The choice needn’t be between being left unclean and uncared for and having a male cater either, but even if that’s what it came down to, lies are not acceptable. A starving vegetarian may decide to eat meat if that is all that is available, but again, it should not be given to him or her deceitfully. Denying agency to women is not feminism, and is not acceptable in any circumstances.

I am shocked to find that anyone, feminist or not, would think that it is ok to lie about something like that.

Who has said trans women can't do certain jobs? No one.

Whose suggested they stay at home unless they're wearing a flashing sign above their heads? No one. Seriously VS is the the best argument you have to put forward?

Throughout history people have died because of their beliefs. JW's for example have been known to choose death over a blood transfusion.

I doubt that anyone would be left sitting in their own waste for any length of time if that had been noticed by a trans care worker or nurse, who then notified another member of staff so they could assist the patient Glorianny. Unless of course all the staff members were trans which is extremely unlikely.

VS, would the paramedic start the care or the treatment by announcing their sex?

Do you accept it’s OK for all males to lie, or only those who are TW?

I think we all know "it's quite possible for women to have their rights protected and to support trans people" because that's what the majority of us do and are fighting for.

Trouble is, although it's quite possible it isn't happening is it.

What's been happening is rights that women have fought long and hard for are being ignored and the reasons given are that trans people should be supported. Of course they should, but not at the expense of another demographic.

I can't imagine that anyone contributing to these discussions is unaware of the core beliefs of feminism, being feminists ourselves. You've posted "human rights is not a hierarchical system where one set of rights is pitted against another, that's pure patriarchy" and yet, you as a feminist appear to be doing precisely that.

Or if someone needs an ambulance and a trans person is closest, surely they wouldn't let them die over a belief

Smileless2012

But if someone's trans status is obvious Doodledog and someone requests they are seen by a woman, they would then no doubt be accused of being transphobic.

Even more concerning is that in that circumstance,
A. if females working in a place, supported the opinion held by a few on GN that it’s OK for males to lie, the females might not agree to treat the client to show solidarity with their male colleagues.

B. As happened to a family member, when a blatantly male TW was assigned to a female MH ward with vulnerable females, nurses were afraid to do anything for fear of the transphobia threat.