Single sex loos to be mandatory- at last!

It's the gender neutral toilets as you've described them Saetana that raise concerns, not unisex which as you say are self contained units so a man wouldn't be in at the same time as a woman.

Grantanow

Haven't the Tories forgotten loos on trains, ferries and planes? How soon can we expect designated male/female/other on these mobile platforms? Surely the same arguments apply.

Not really - train toilets are unisex and self-contained with a washbasin etc. Gender neutral toilets are a row of cubicles with shared washing facilities that both men and women use. Nobody here, or the Tories, has a problem with unisex toilets. In fact unisex toilets were actually suggested by Kemi Badenoch as an alternative to male and female toilets where space is lacking. Disabled toilets are also unisex, neither train nor disabled toilets are gender neutral.

Toilets on the ferry recently had male and female toilet spaces. The v a in the female toilets had just enough room for hand washing and up to two people to wait for access to the two enclosed toilet cubicles.
I would have been most concerned to come out of a toilet cubicle and find a male in that area.

I don’t think people are reading the thread, Galaxy.

Toilets on planes and trains are single enclosed cubicles with sinks, they are not shared with men at the same time.

Haven't the Tories forgotten loos on trains, ferries and planes? How soon can we expect designated male/female/other on these mobile platforms? Surely the same arguments apply.

I think the unisex toilets in Ally McBeal were an invention to the question for any continuing drama, which is where do characters meet casually and have conversations? I think the toilet arrangements would have put me right off taking a job there!

Shizam

I have crashed male toilets on ski trips and at theatre because of queues. Just didn’t look at the urinal action. But I was an adult.
In schools, it should be firmly enforced to keep girls safe.

When the "girls" become young women - they should still be kept "safe".

I have crashed male toilets on ski trips and at theatre because of queues. Just didn’t look at the urinal action. But I was an adult.
In schools, it should be firmly enforced to keep girls safe.

The long hair and make up is part of what males think being a woman means.
They don’t know how being a woman feels because they are not and never will be, but acting and dressing as their idea of being a woman makes them feel they are achieving something and as long as it doesn’t involve cheating or accessing places they are not entitled to, why not dress up.

I was a union rep in the 80's and remember discussions regarding a staff member who had a sex change. I don't remember in which direction, however the workplace had to build a new toilet for his/her use as both male and female employees refused to share their facilities with the individual. This sort of problem has been in existence for many years!

I also remember being shocked many years ago when holidaying in France to find that some loos required one to go through the 'gents' in order to access the 'ladies' which was located further through! I've also found myself in the wrong loos when in a foreign airport as I didn't read the signs properly! Thankfully I haven't been scarred for life!

'Mostly', FP? Do you have a source for that?

I'm interested as we are told that being a woman is not about presentation, but about a 'feeling'. I don't understand what that means. It is society that has said that (in this culture at this time) it is women who have long hair and make up. 300 years ago, men were the 'fops'. They had long wigs and white faces, but were still masculine. Sikhs don't cut their hair, but that has nothing to do with 'feminisation' either. It can't work both ways, can it?

Sometimes unisex loos are a good option. I took the GC to a play barn at the weekend. The toilets were unisex (all cubicles), and were happily being used by mums, dads, grandparents and kids.

Doodledog

*Do you not think that men who are transitioning might like to wear makeup and have long hair?*

Some might, and others might not.

For men transitionning, they are mostly very keen to show their feminisation by any means possible. So clothes, hair, nails, make-up, are very much part of the process.

"All new public lavatories..." what about the existing ones

M0nica

I think this is approaching the problem from completelythe wrong angle.

I recently visited a London museum. The unisex toilets were either side of wide open ended corridor. Each stall was surrounded by a floor to ceiling solid tiled wall and there were no gaps under or over the door. The stalls were large and included a wash basin. I could not have felt safer. Last week in France I used the one, inevitably, unisex loo in a restaurant, again, it was effectively a cpmpletely sealed room, that opened on to the entrance lobby of the restaurant. Again, I felt completely safe.

What is needed is not silly bans like this, but a list of standards that unisex loos must meet, which, I suggest, should include completely enclosed cubicles, which include washbasins as well as loos and not opening into enclosed spaces, as many single sex loo facilities do. They should open onto a corridor, or other space where people will be visible and can be seen from general circulation areas.

What you quote is the difference between unisex toilets, which I am sure none of us have a problem with, and gender neutral toilets which have shared facilities and are not self contained.

Fleurpepper

So someone who has fully transionned, with long hair, wearing a dress and heels, a bit of make-up, a handbag- after years and years of suffering and pain, both physical and psychological- will be expected to go into toilets marked for men, if there is a choice between male and female toilets.

No, there should be a unisex toilet provided that is self contained with its own washbasin, hand dryer etc. This would be appropriate for everyone, not just trans people, but one toilet of this type would suffice for the miniscule number of people who identify as trans.

There is a difference between gender neutral toilets and unisex toilets. Gender neutral toilets have a number of cubicles that both men and women can use but have shared washing facilities. Unisex toilets are completely self contained with a washbasin, hand dryer etc. I have no problem with the latter - this is how disabled/baby changing toilets are organised, also toilets in small venues where there may only be a single toilet. I have a serious problem with gender neutral toilets - I have no desire whatsoever to encounter men when I am going to the loo, anyone who has ever seen the state of men's toilets compared to women's toilets will know what I am talking about. Both women and men require privacy, men have no more desire to use gender neutral toilets than women do. A proper men's toilet with urinals is speedy, as we all know women's toilets often have a long queue.

All this means is venues need to provide either male and female toilets and/or proper unisex self contained toilets. Both would be the ideal as this would solve the problem of trans people being unsure which toilet they should use. Of all the sexual assaults that have happened recently in toilets, the vast majority have happened in gender neutral toilets. This kind of toilet in schools is an abomination - girls are getting urine infections due to not wanting to go into a toilet where boys are present. Teenage girls have different needs to boys, particularly given they will have recently started their periods - and, to be honest, teenage boys are purile at the best of times. I have heard of sanitary products being thrown at girls, boys timing them to see if they are on their period. Its dehumanising and completely unacceptable.

Dinahmo

Galaxy
Make up and long hair are again stereotypes about women. My mum never ever wore make up she strangely still was a woman, we need to challenge these stereotypes.

Do you not think that men who are transitioning might like to wear makeup and have long hair?

Why not? Many men who are straight have long hair and have done since I was a lot younger. The number of facial products for males has been increasing for years.

I haven't worn makeup for many years - even the hypoallergenic ones make my eyes itch. I have my hair relatively short, about 1 inch below my ears, for ease and comfort.

But you’re confident that you’re female, you don’t have to do anything different to demonstrate that. You don’t take selfies of your long haired, made up self sitting in female toilets with captions about how you can’t be stopped.

Chestnut

What about schools, does anyone know what toilets there are especially in mixed secondary schools? The idea of boys being in the same space as young girls on their periods is horrendous.

There were unisex toilets for the children’s use (and for us as visitors) in a modern mixed secondary school I visited for a meeting about 10 years ago. I didn’t think they were very private either - in an open hallway area as you entered the building.

Ailidh

I have never been in a public building where toilets that included more than one cubicle were not single sex.

Doctor's, hospital, dentist, Costa etc all have facilities labelled for use by either sex and by any (dis)ability but they are single cubicles off a public space.

Are there really public facilities in this country where men and women enter the same, multi-cubicled area?
If so, I'm gob-smacked. If no, I don't get the point of the announcement.

I found that the former women's toilets on the ground floor of the City Art Gallery in Edinburgh had changed signage saying they were for everybody to use. Inside there is an area with handbasins and cubicles with WCs . It is a small space where you are very close to anyone else using the facilities and the cubicles are quite flimsy and open at the bottom and top. No one else came in while I was there but I would have felt uncomfortable if a man had come in and there were just the two of us in such a small and intimate space with no one else there.
I think I found out later that there are still women only toilets elsewhere in the building but there was nothing to say so and this is the facility near the cafe and on the ground floor that is most accessible to me as an older woman who is no longer very physically able.
I would have no problem with a toilet that was lockable and opened directly onto a public space.

Both the unisex loos I quoted in my post were beautifully clean. In France unisex loos have been common in small restaurants for as long as we have been going there, well over 30 years, and are no more or less clean than any single sex ones.

The museum loos were also impeccable.

Just one more reason for me as an older person not bothering to go into town or an eating place. I prefer a ladies loo. Mens toilets are usually smelly and revolting. As I found out to my horror when I walked into one by mistake.

Do you not think that men who are transitioning might like to wear makeup and have long hair?

Some might, and others might not.

Galaxy

Make up and long hair are again stereotypes about women. My mum never ever wore make up she strangely still was a woman, we need to challenge these stereotypes.

Do you not think that men who are transitioning might like to wear makeup and have long hair?

I haven't worn makeup for many years - even the hypoallergenic ones make my eyes itch. I have my hair relatively short, about 1 inch below my ears, for ease and comfort.