Gender stuff gone mad ....

Luckygirl what a difficult situation for you and your family

My son is gay, and we have never had to deal with any strident behaviour or difficulties. He is as he is. That is conservative with a small c, not politically. He dresses like any other man, pretty much lives as any other man, as does his partner. I once said on a thread that he doesn’t particularly look gay (in other words he doesn’t dress in a manner that would draw attention nor is he camp in any way) and got pulled up by another poster for saying it. The fact is he’s my son, his partner is my son in law, his child is my grandson. They live a fairly unremarkable life. He’s a lawyer, often in court, and his identity as gay is known and in no way hinders his life, nor his achievements.

Surely when people, I mean adult people, feel they want to live their lives as the opposite sex, I’m unsure why they just don’t get on with it, like my son and other gay people do. I’m fed up of the strident behaviour , the threats, the involvement of politicians and other organisations. No one is bothered if that would be the case. Restaurants and other public places simply need a unisex bathroom alongside the usual men and women’s, or to make all toilets single stalls. It really shouldn’t need to be this difficult. Especially as trans people are estimated to be far fewer than 1% of the population.

My heart goes out to you, Luckygirl. It must be a very difficult situation, and one that nobody knows how they would deal with unless it happens to them.

Why does every political party, every organisation, every charity have to have a view on this? In the main it is irrelevant to their aims and work.

It all makes me despair. I think of Hitler and his aims - and how people did not dare to argue with him.

We are in a similar boat when it comes to gender. This insidious nonsense has crept into every corner of our lives, and organisations and companies feel they have to keep up by jumping on this latest bandwagon.

TBH I did not feel entirely happy when the whole issue of being gay became so very strident and in-your-face. I am happy for people to love whom they love and to do whatever they want with their genitals with whomever they want, provided no-one is hurt or exploited. But I find all the flag-waving a bit OTT. I don't join "straight marches" - basically because there are none. People are just people, and love is in short supply, so let people love whom they wish. Life is not just about sexuality - it is not the whole of a person's identity.

And the gender debate has created its own bandwagon and strident demands - and organisations do not have the courage to say no to being a vehicle for these ideas.

Of course it is important that someone who is unhappy in their body has the chance to explore this with the proper professionals, who approach it with an open mind. There is no need at all for every person to toe a particular line. This is how minds are closed, and it becomes more difficult for those in need of help to find someone who can look at who they are and what their needs are, without looking over their shoulder to see if they might get the sack. That helps no-one.

And caught in the middle of this are the vulnerable young people, searching, as all young people do, to decide who they are. Their vulnerability and confusion is being exploited and manipulated by all that they hear around them. I feel sorry for them and for the teachers who have to navigate this minefield with the threat of consequences if they do not toe the line, even though they might be trying to simply help one individual with a bit more subtlety than a sledgehammer.

My DGS/D is caught up in all this in ways that are massively detrimental. The peace and privacy to explore their identity is denied them. The confusion of autism and physical health problems has become focussed on gender as the answer to every prayer. A peg to hang the uncertainties on. It makes me very sad to see someone I love caught up in this turmoil and manipulated by the media.

That's one of the biggest mysteries isn't it? The climate change agenda is backed by science and people are happy to quote acknowledged experts, but when it comes to biology an expert like Sir Robert Winston, with a lifetime of experience, doesn't know what he's talking about? Instead they go to pseudoscience papers, articles which have never been peer reviewed, or "personalities" and are blindly galloping into fantasy land.

Good for him, Molly. Maybe he will be part of the next incarnation of ecology-conscious politicians.

It doesn't make sense to me to assume that people wanting the environment to be considered when making policy should also believe that sex can be changed. If anything, those with an understanding of the science behind climate change are more, rather than less likely to understand that sex is immutable.

Rosie51

👏👏👏 Doodledog and Dickens
There are glimmers of hope that sanity will eventually prevail, and this forced compliance with an ideology will wither. Why can’t it be seen that anybody can believe exactly what they want, but compelling me to believe and say I do too is abusing my human rights?
Many organisations are leaving Stonewall and that is encouraging but unfortunately some of the employees are still very captured and can still influence policy. Too many people, understandably, keep their thoughts to themselves and their heads down out of outright fear of the repercussions from stating simple truths. Kudos to those who are prepared to risk
the wrath of the trans lobby.

Well said.
So much sense from Doodledog, Dickens et al that I can’t really say more.
A point of interest for me is that a Green Party councillor I taught when he was in KS1 announced that he was standing down from the GP because of their stance on this issue. He was one of the brighter children in his year.

👏👏👏 Doodledog and Dickens
There are glimmers of hope that sanity will eventually prevail, and this forced compliance with an ideology will wither. Why can’t it be seen that anybody can believe exactly what they want, but compelling me to believe and say I do too is abusing my human rights?
Many organisations are leaving Stonewall and that is encouraging but unfortunately some of the employees are still very captured and can still influence policy. Too many people, understandably, keep their thoughts to themselves and their heads down out of outright fear of the repercussions from stating simple truths. Kudos to those who are prepared to risk
the wrath of the trans lobby.

It's the second time the greens have fallen foul of this, the first was a catastrophe, I feel that smaller parties are particularly vulnerable to it.

A collective dangerous madness has taken over, it seems.

That has been the case for years now, but cases like this, or those of Forstater and Bailey, or the shifting position of the Labour Party suggest that sanity is returning. Many organisations have rejected Stonewall too, which is a huge (if under-reported) step.

Basically, this means, accept that if someone says a man can be a woman if he says so, he is a woman... or run the risk of being ousted from your organisation / job.

Don't argue with it, just accept their belief, or you will be punished one way or another.

A collective dangerous madness has taken over, it seems.

In general I don't wish the Greens ill, but in this case I really hope that their trans ideology bites them on the bum, as it will show that the legal system is on the side of realism and that zealots can't impose spurious ideology on the rest of us.

It would be a shame to lose a party that has done a lot of good but as they have morphed into an extremist mouthpiece for the trans lobby it is time they went. They, alongside Stonewall and Oxfam can always regroup and return to what they were formed to represent. I think if they (all) weed out the TRAs and relaunch then supporters will return. I miss the Guardian too, and wish that they would do likewise.

The Green Party (England & Wales) could be in serious financial trouble because of legal expenses from court cases over their stance on trans ideology.

bylinetimes.com/2023/08/29/green-party-at-risk-of-going-bust-amid-trans-rights-row-legal-challenge-from-former-deputy-leader/

I would complain too, because I also think it’s offensive and inaccurate.

I would complain about that, if I felt up to it, PP. Obviously if you are ill you might not want to be bothered, but it's offensive and inaccurate.

I had a hospital appointment last week.Today I received a copy of the letter sent by the hospital to my GP.
I was referred to throughout as ''they/them''
I am female and am not plural!

DD I don't think anonymous people can reasonably be expected to give pronouns.
and in the current state play, would we know if the pronouns are sexually accurate?

The No Debate strategy (or the flounce and refusal to engage, which is the online equivalent) says it all, IMO. It shows that there is no counter argument, yet people still threaten, abuse and twist what is being said. There are no answers to the most basic of questions, so insults about being unable to keep up with changes, or being 'phobic' are all that's left, yet there are still people who seem unable to see that that's what's going on.
That’s an accurate summary of what we see on here and also fairly typical of responses on X.
Except on X there are also endless posts from TW and TRA saying “ You can’t stop us.”

I don't think anonymous people can reasonably be expected to give pronouns .

The No Debate strategy (or the flounce and refusal to engage, which is the online equivalent) says it all, IMO. It shows that there is no counter argument, yet people still threaten, abuse and twist what is being said. There are no answers to the most basic of questions, so insults about being unable to keep up with changes, or being 'phobic' are all that's left, yet there are still people who seem unable to see that that's what's going on.

Well ‘they’ won’t stop us from refusing to play

I hope they don't start this pronoun nonsense on GN.

FarNorth

I was late coming to this thread and was dismayed by the first few posts which were along the lines of us on GN being oldies who just have to get used to the new, up to date ideas.
I was so relieved to then see a post from Doodledog talking sense.

Doodledog is the voice of reason.

As for us "oldies" - well, cultural and societal changes are ongoing - we were part of them back in the day, we do understand them. We also have the benefit of hindsight - we know how things were, how some things are better for the changes that we've seen, and the acknowledgement of same-sex attraction was one of the best changes.

But we don't have to accept without critical examination all changes that are taking place, or foisted on us and I hope we've still got those critical thinking skills that made us, in 'our day', part of the movement for change!

Perhaps the worst aspect of the Stonewall agenda is it's attempt to close down any debate. In a democracy surely you cannot censor people to that extent? And, if they believe they can, they must expect a backlash from those who believe in the principle of free speech - within the Law. Which might well be the reason they're attempting to change it.

Stonewall, in need of a further cause, then used their finances and reputation to promote the idea of gender identity.

I mean Stonewall's finances & reputation, not the individuals'.

Is that "power and influence" for its own benefit - or has it been hijacked by other - malign - forces for reasons which are not clear yet?

I think it's both.

Transwoman Christine Burns' book 'Trans Britain - Our Journey from the Shadows' shows how individuals in the UK have been working away for decades.
Stonewall, in need of a further cause, then used their finances and reputation to promote the idea of gender identity.

I'm not well-informed about things like the Yogyakarta Principles and WPATH but it seems to me there must be powerful, rich people who pushed their own ideas.
Jennifer Bilek is one person who has researched this.

Recently, a few people have reasoned that autogynephile men who get sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women have wanted to play for sympathy by claiming that they are actually unhappy souls who were born in the wrong body and who knew this from a young age.
For that to be true there have to be 'trans children' now, hence the huge efforts to suggest this to children in numerous ways.

People will still say such things as a course of action is recommended by Stonewall - they have been used to seeing Stonewall as an authority, showing them the way, and they haven't grasped what has changed.

I was late coming to this thread and was dismayed by the first few posts which were along the lines of us on GN being oldies who just have to get used to the new, up to date ideas.
I was so relieved to then see a post from Doodledog talking sense.