Calling Someond A Racist

Annie1 "May you live in interesting times" is, I believe, a Chinese curse.

Life is simple in bluebell woods if someone is sprouting racist comments they are racist and I would tell them so I wouldn’t normally put it in terms of you are a racist but say that is a racist statement or why do you use such racist terms
However I don’t think the woman was wrong in her summing up of Fox

I agree . We are more divided than I can ever remember and I have been around a long time. Labels do not help in any way, they just make people angry and hurt , especially if they are unjustified and thrown around to make someone who has being doing something wrong feel righteous. There is no longer any such thing as freedom to express views ( and I am not talking about extreme right wing or left wing ones, just normal stuff) Places like China are rightly condemned for oppression but the rest of us heading down the same path without so much as a backward glance.

In what specific ways do you consider the civil service incompetent?

PS. I really hate the modern trend to call anybody names (racist, incompetent etc) without rational justification - it smacks of a primary school playground, which I naively hoped adults would have outgrown.

Doodledog, I take your points which are well made. I think my unease is really that socially, in recent times, people’s political views or beliefs are not well tolerated particularly by those who are more left wing than the majority of the population. I am a Conservative who has never voted Labour although I regard the Lib Dem party good at looking after my local area of London and I have mainly voted for them. I think British society is more divided politically than I have never known before. There is no doubt that the Conservatives need to regroup and get themselves together. Re the latest concrete problems in public buildings. All blame has descended on the Tories because of spending cuts but I find myself wondering if any shoddy buildings went up in the times of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, The press does not tell us. I also wonder about Civil Service incompetence and hope that Sir Keir gets a handle on that. I forget who said it but “We live in interesting times” What else can go wrong?

I think a lot of people who despise Farage for his views have sympathised with him over the banking thing. I'm not sure what point you are making about his views though - what else can people use to form an opinion of him? During the Brexit campaign his views were rammed down our throats enough, but otherwise what is there to know?

As for Fox - the 'who said what' is 100% of the point . On QT he exposed his views for what they are, and then went on to form a risible political party that he thought would rally like-minded people to his cause - it didn't, thank goodness - which left people in no doubt. Again, unless we know him personally, we only have his views to go on, whether as the sexist creature he was on Gogglebox or as a Far Right political wannabe. That's why he's become persona non grata, and that's why people don't like him. If his acting career has suffered, it is because people will never take him seriously as a decent person with moderate views, whatever part he is playing.

“I don’t like Lawrence Fox” and I understand therefore that people cannot decouple their personal feelings and how such people become persona non grata. Whatever who said what still had the effect of him losing a successful career. I guess he became an actor because he was raised in a family of famous people already in the profession. The idea that personal animosity can lead to undesirable outcomes is demonstrated here. It also happened with Nigel Farage, who many people hate for his political beliefs. People could not decouple their hatred of him to regard his treatment by Coutts bank as anything of interest to them. Some on the left defended the action of the bank.Only when ordinary people came forward to report the same treatment that the general public realised they your bank could kick you out because of your political beliefs. We later learned that mass killers in prison were allowed an account but not some people like the elderly Vicar in Yorkshire who complained about the sheer number of Pride flags Yorkshire Building Society emblazoned on their premises.

The woman at the head of NatWest who leaked confidential information had to resign. She was handed out over £1 million of our money to ease her way. This was not acceptable but nothing was done. There’s nowt so queer as folk!

I rather liked his character in "Lewis"

Laurence Fox is an awful actor, and to my mind, an awful person who seems to thrive on controversy, and I fail to see why his opinion is sought by journalists and commentators; it is no more relevant to the majority of the public than mine.

However, I do think that there is a lot of accusations of racism, sexism, nazism, narcissm etc., all of these are terrible things to experience and the constant use of these words as insults devalues the real hurt, offence and fear these actions cause to people.

nanna8

I just wouldn’t repeat what some Singaporeans say about Chinese people living in Singapore. But they can’t be racist, of course.

Of course they can. Why ever not?

I am not sure that us, as white people, can always tell what is really racist. My daughter in law and grandchildren are black and now the children are older they quite often point out things that they consider racist which I had not thought about. Looking back at my teenage years I can see now that I did refer to people in a racist way although at the time I had no intent to do so.

TaraLee

There are 2 things that are truths:

1. Only white people are racist.

2. People of color can never be considered racist because all white people are racist and they started it.

Makes sense, right?

Nope!

Doodledog

The woman didn’t say it! She said that MM had been a victim of racism and LF reacted to that by turning it back on her and saying that it was racist to call him a privileged white man. Which, of course, he is.

This- what a horrid, racist man (and we have plenty of evidence to that effect).

nanna8

I just wouldn’t repeat what some Singaporeans say about Chinese people living in Singapore. But they can’t be racist, of course.

Why not?

I just wouldn’t repeat what some Singaporeans say about Chinese people living in Singapore. But they can’t be racist, of course.

That's what I was saying upthread. POC can, like any other group, be bigoted against people from other groups, but it is 'the system' which perpetuates racism.

There's a lot of misunderstanding with regard to what is racism and what is prejudice and why in this country racism relates to the actions of "white" people but not those "of colour" I think the easiest way to understand the difference is to think of it as a power imbalance. Racism is linked to power and prejudice is not. Most of what has been described in this thread is prejudice and there's certainly lots of that about in all sections of society regardless of colour or ethnicity. Prejudice is unpleasant but it's not against the law, it only becomes contrary to the law when you combine that prejudice with power to discriminate ie treat people differently whether consciously or unconsciously so that they are disadvantaged in some way. This is a very simplistic way of looking at racism and it's far from perfect but hopefully explains why LF's comment was wrong. The UK is a lovely country but there is still lots of institutional racism embedded in our predominently white society and to pretend otherwise is somewhat naive.

Primrose 53 I agree. I work with a man who comes from Pakistan. We get on really well. We have long chats about our different cultures ( I am white British) and religions. He is a Muslim and I am a practicing Christian). But I won't even repeat his views on people who are black. If I held the same opinions I would be out of the door with my P45 in minutes.

But the audience member didn't call him a racist, according to your own account. She said Britain was a racist country.

The worst racism I remember was between West Indians and Asians. They just did not get along at all. West Indians thought Asians were stuck up and Asians thought West Indians were poorly educated.

They were either very rude to each other or completely blanked each other.

Yes, you don't have to be white to be a racist. Just look at the treatment of the Uyghurs in China, the Rohingha in Mynanmar, the Dalit in India, but if I wouldn't chose Laurence Fox as a victim of racism. Read Doodledog's post to see why.

In my experience, having been married to an Indian for 46 years and obviously knowing other members of his community well too, the idea that people from ethnic minorities are falling over themselves to label people as racists is quite untrue. It hurts to realise that someone despises or belittles you because of the colour of your skin. They will tend to blame themselves - "I must have done something to upset her" - even if everyone knows that the person in question discriminates against people of other races or has actually expressed racist opinions. The idea that someone hates what you are on the most basic level, what you were born with and cannot change, is an ugly thing to have to accept.

There is prejudice in all communities and I don't think many people from ethnic minorities would deny it. However, it makes a difference whether your particular race is the one with all the advantages and the power.

As for Fox, being called a racist didn't destroy his career. Constantly making idiotic remarks, such as his thoughts on Covid vaccinations, made him a laughing stock.

My stepmother is black and she says she receives most racism from other black people who appear to take offence to her being with my dad (who is white) . When out and about and holding hands, they have had black people rudely barge through them to break their hand holding. She was also told by her black hairdresser that she should be with a black man, not a white one. If a white person behaved in this way, they would be called racist. It seems that there is one rule for some and another rule for others 🤔.

Laurencek Fox has some very strange and unhealthy views in my opinion, for example trying burn a gay pride flag and posting the video, promoting anti vaccination views, posting photos of himself in blackface, generally trying to be controversial and obnoxious

TaraLee

There are 2 things that are truths:

1. Only white people are racist.

2. People of color can never be considered racist because all white people are racist and they started it.

Makes sense, right?

You are Oprah Winfrey and I claim my £5!