Calling Someond A Racist

Of course maddie isn’t racist - that’s absurd.

Anniel

Some posters have form for such daft remarks and are best ignored.

I did point out that LF expresses some loony views that I do not like. However, my attention was caught by the article written by Douglas Murray. I am interested in the way the accusation of “racist” is flung around in a hurtful way with no idea of how the accusation is perceived. We have the perfect example on this thread with the nasty accusation by LyleLyle.Someone expresses an opinion only to get insulted by that senseless post. This person has provided a clear illustration of what Douglas Murray was alleging.

I think that using terms like 'paedophile' in ways that are technically inaccurate is akin to calling people narcissists or that they are 'obsessed' with something or have OCD. When what used to be medical/psychiatric terms get absorbed into general vocabulary it does dilute the meaning, but they are also shorthand for behaviour that we all recognise.

It can be very annoying - a real obsession is not remotely the same as someone holding a belief and not being dissuaded from it, for instance, and OCD is a debilitating condition that ruins lives. But when describing the need to have things lined up perfectly, or to go home and check that the oven is off every time someone leaves the house, it is easier for all concerned to use the term 'OCD' rather than explain it at length.

'Racism' does, technically, mean the system which allows people to be treated differently because of their 'race', but saying that an act of discrimination or prejudice is racist is widely understood, and most people would use it that way. Even terms such as 'discrimination' and 'prejudice' are often used interchangeably, although they mean very different things. In general conversation, however, the meaning of what is being said is clear, which is usually the important thing.

Doodledog

Galaxy

I think Lawrence Fox has managed to destroy his own career, his behaviour is quite erratic.

Agreed. He comes across as very unpleasant.

There are 2 things that are truths:

1. Only white people are racist.

2. People of color can never be considered racist because all white people are racist and they started it.

Makes sense, right?
I can’t tell if you are being snarky or not, but it is fair to say that only white people can be racist, if racism is defined as the systemic disadvantage of a group in society based on race. As power is held (in general) by white people, they are the only ones who can be racist.

People of colour can discriminate, or hold prejudices and even hatred based on race, which is as bad as if it happens the other way round, but actual racism is white on other ‘races’ because of that systemic power.

All humans can be guilty of differentiating and holding prejudices based on colour, ‘race’, religion, class, whatever (even Yorkshire/Lancashire or England/ Scotland, despite the ‘race’ or nationality being the same) and if that happens it as also horrible, but that’s not the same as being racist.

So Idi Amin was just prejudiced rather than racist by that reasoning?

growstuff

There is a difference between calling somebody a paedophile and calling somebody a racist. Being a paedophile is illegal. Being a racist isn't illegal, apart from certain specific circumstances. People are free to express racist views, but they can expect people to react to them. Being called a paedophile when you're not is defamation of character.

There have been many instances some on this forum, of people in the public eye being referred to as paedophiles - Prince Andrew for instance.

Regardless of guilt or not - sexual activity with teenagers isn’t paedophilia. A paedophile is someone sexually attracted to children, often infants. In my opinion the overuse of the word paedophile detracts from the abuse so many children suffer at the hands of real paedophiles.

Galaxy

I think Lawrence Fox has managed to destroy his own career, his behaviour is quite erratic.

Agreed. He comes across as very unpleasant.

There are 2 things that are truths:

1. Only white people are racist.

2. People of color can never be considered racist because all white people are racist and they started it.

Makes sense, right?
I can’t tell if you are being snarky or not, but it is fair to say that only white people can be racist, if racism is defined as the systemic disadvantage of a group in society based on race. As power is held (in general) by white people, they are the only ones who can be racist.

People of colour can discriminate, or hold prejudices and even hatred based on race, which is as bad as if it happens the other way round, but actual racism is white on other ‘races’ because of that systemic power.

All humans can be guilty of differentiating and holding prejudices based on colour, ‘race’, religion, class, whatever (even Yorkshire/Lancashire or England/ Scotland, despite the ‘race’ or nationality being the same) and if that happens it as also horrible, but that’s not the same as being racist.

I have some time for Douglas Murray although dont agree with him on lots of things. I think there probably is a discussion to be had, although I think facist and nazi are thrown around with much more wild abandon than racist.
I also think there is no consistency, some famous people get away with incredible racism, homophobia, misogyny whatever and it seems to have no impact on their career.

lyleLyle have you experienced a good result from saying 'You are a racist' rather than countering what the person has actually said or done?

Sorry Galaxy you didn’t say you didn’t like him. I was about to change my comment and posted by mistake.

I don’t like Lawrence Fox either Galaxy.

I think Lawrence Fox has managed to destroy his own career, his behaviour is quite erratic.

That comment towards me lyleLyle, is rude and offensive. To tell me what I’ve said is vile is deeply unpleasant and says much about you.

maddyone

I think it unacceptable to accuse someone of being a racist without some very strong proof. I think it’s often said to close down discussion. I have never said outright to someone that they are a racist, even when I thought they were. It’s bad manners in my opinion. We can’t always say what we think, whether we consider ourselves to be right or not.

That idea that we need to “mind our manners” toward racists is as vile as racism itself. It’s the racists who should not say what they think, else justifiably receive the backlash they deserve.

We’re just white trash though, aren’t we?

There are 2 things that are truths:

1. Only white people are racist.

2. People of color can never be considered racist because all white people are racist and they started it.

Makes sense, right?

I think it unacceptable to accuse someone of being a racist without some very strong proof. I think it’s often said to close down discussion. I have never said outright to someone that they are a racist, even when I thought they were. It’s bad manners in my opinion. We can’t always say what we think, whether we consider ourselves to be right or not.

BlueBelle

Laurence Fox appears to be a very nasty piece of work and probably is a racist from some of his comments and actions so I reckon he woman had it about right

Exactly.

Sorry Doodledog I should have read your comment more thoroughly.

The woman didn’t say it! She said that MM had been a victim of racism and LF reacted to that by turning it back on her and saying that it was racist to call him a privileged white man. Which, of course, he is.

I am so sorry Mogsmaw there is no mercy or forgiveness in this new religion.
Accusations of racism are used to shut people down, I think at best it is lazy and at worst it is vindictive. The outcome is that we are not having proper conversations about issues in our society.
So whether the woman got it right or not it is a pity it was all she could think of to say.

Some accusations are so toxic that you feel unable to defend yourself. I was publicly shamed at work , accused of being “homophobic” because I knocked over a pride picture. I’m naturally clumsy (dyspraxic) and have limited mobility due to arthritic hips. I couldn’t climb past the thing without hitting it.
This was a monstrous thing, my age and disability categorised as a hate crime! Yet I’m ashamed!
People throw out these accusations with impunity

Laurence Fox appears to be a very nasty piece of work and probably is a racist from some of his comments and actions so I reckon he woman had it about right

There is a difference between calling somebody a paedophile and calling somebody a racist. Being a paedophile is illegal. Being a racist isn't illegal, apart from certain specific circumstances. People are free to express racist views, but they can expect people to react to them. Being called a paedophile when you're not is defamation of character.

lyleLyle, At work (teaching) I was accused of being a racist - twice. I found it very upsetting. The first time, I ordered a disruptive student to leave the class. The second time, I was accused of giving more time and attention to somebody else - who was white.

It's difficult to disprove allegations or to defend yourself, even when your current OH is black. I came to the conclusion that both people were on the lookout for discrimination, so found it where it didn't exist.

Another example is bullying. A person may just feel bullied and that has to be taken seriously and investigated. The one accused of bullying will have a hard time disproving it. The mere suspicion of bias or bullying can live on to stunt a career or ruin friendships and reputations.