Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Rosie51

*Glorianny*^I support women Rosie51. I can be absolutely sure about the sex of very few of the people I know. I know a lot of women, but have no idea if they are all female. Nor would I dream of asking them.^
The rules permitted Beggs to take testosterone. And he did cut the dose right down.
I have never said there are no differences between male and female. I have said the system is unfair and the proposal to ban transwomen does not create an even playing field.

Your open category would still leave transmen unable to compete with men.

Not being absolutely sure about the sex of the people you know is irrelevant to most of daily life, but I bet you can make a good guess in 99% of cases. The sex of people is important where it's relevant and sporting competitions is one such area. Medical practice is another, males and females have susceptibility to different diseases ie cervical cancer versus prostate cancer.

I've never proposed banning transwomen from sport, I've offered a fair way for them to participate in the open category. Open, meaning open to all. Transwomen will be able to compete in the open category and not be compelled to take medication to suppress their testosterone, surely you'd be pleased about that? They will compete against a mix of male and female competitors. I really can't fathom that you don't understand this.

The men would all be in the open category so transmen would be competing against men. I assume you're using men to denote male sex people here, as you do when condemning the "white men" who "control sports".

And as I said in that reply of mine you chose to ignore a totally even playing field would result in no winners, no losers just a blanket tied finish. In handicapped horse races that's the aim of the handicapper, that all the horses would finish in a line. It doesn't happen because of a variety of factors. Is that what you want for human sports, that each individual is handicapped in some way to even out differences in ability?

So what you are proposing is that transwomen who think they are women would only be able to participate in the open category, women would have a separate provision, but men and transmen could only compete in the open category.
According to your views on the advantage of male bodies wouldn't that mean transpeople would stand little chance of ever winning? How is that fair?
What you are actually saying is that because you think transwomen are men they should compete against men.
But also
That transmen who you think are women should also compete against men.
How is that fair to females?
If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him?

Glorianny where’s your evidence that TM are lying and cheating to do that compete in male races?
You keep mentioning this so where’s the evidence that is happening?

There would have to be a TM category or a Female + open (for females whatever they call themselves) and a TW category or a male + open (for males whatever they call themselves)
If there was just one open category for both sexes, who do you think would enter? Who would win?
That would mean TW would have to race against each other 😱 😱! Males having to race against each other, so no chance of a guaranteed win! Hardly worth saying you’re a TW in those circumstances.

Still comes back to do your support males who lie about their sex in order to cheat females of the achievements they have earned?

Glorianny^I support women Rosie51. I can be absolutely sure about the sex of very few of the people I know. I know a lot of women, but have no idea if they are all female. Nor would I dream of asking them.^
The rules permitted Beggs to take testosterone. And he did cut the dose right down.
I have never said there are no differences between male and female. I have said the system is unfair and the proposal to ban transwomen does not create an even playing field.

Your open category would still leave transmen unable to compete with men.

Not being absolutely sure about the sex of the people you know is irrelevant to most of daily life, but I bet you can make a good guess in 99% of cases. The sex of people is important where it's relevant and sporting competitions is one such area. Medical practice is another, males and females have susceptibility to different diseases ie cervical cancer versus prostate cancer.

I've never proposed banning transwomen from sport, I've offered a fair way for them to participate in the open category. Open, meaning open to all. Transwomen will be able to compete in the open category and not be compelled to take medication to suppress their testosterone, surely you'd be pleased about that? They will compete against a mix of male and female competitors. I really can't fathom that you don't understand this.

The men would all be in the open category so transmen would be competing against men. I assume you're using men to denote male sex people here, as you do when condemning the "white men" who "control sports".

And as I said in that reply of mine you chose to ignore a totally even playing field would result in no winners, no losers just a blanket tied finish. In handicapped horse races that's the aim of the handicapper, that all the horses would finish in a line. It doesn't happen because of a variety of factors. Is that what you want for human sports, that each individual is handicapped in some way to even out differences in ability?

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Wow there's discrimination for you! You have to compete as I say or not compete at all. And I think you believe Beggs is a woman. Obviously not a woman you would grant any rights to.
Why should someone stop participating in something they love simply because a stupid regulation stops them participating at the level they want? They didn't make the regulation.
The degree of control some want to exert over transpeople is positively shocking.
The misinformation and bias is so complicated.
Let's look at it.
Transmen are women but should not compete in women's sports when they are transitioning
Transwomen are men and should not compete in women's sports, because they are men.

How does your open category solve anything? Beggs would still be designated a girl if the chosen method of deciding was the birth certificate. So could still compete in the girls
But let's remember you think he is a female.
How many more transmen would you stop participating in sport and how is that at all supporting these people you believe are women?

Any transman not on testosterone would in my world be fine to compete in the female event. Doping with testosterone is not allowed for any female who doesn't say they are transitioning, so why is there a special rule for some?

Do you not understand that the open category means Beggs could enter it under their identity of being a man using their trans name? But let's remember you think he is a female. Beggs is female, perfectly able to present and think of themself as a man, but biological sex cannot be changed. If the rules state no doping with testosterone, then Beggs has a choice, enter and stop the testosterone or decide not to enter. Why is Beggs taking testosterone? Is it to develop a more manly physique, lay down more muscle than can be done naturally? You seem to have missed that a female who had no intention or desire to transition could enter the open category. Given that you believe there are few differences between males and females, you'd surely expect many to prefer this open category?

It is interesting to note that the only females you ever want to promote are those that want to be men, they apparently are "the right sort of females"!

I support women Rosie51. I can be absolutely sure about the sex of very few of the people I know. I know a lot of women, but have no idea if they are all female. Nor would I dream of asking them.
The rules permitted Beggs to take testosterone. And he did cut the dose right down.
I have never said there are no differences between male and female. I have said the system is unfair and the proposal to ban transwomen does not create an even playing field.

Your open category would still leave transmen unable to compete with men.

I object to Mack Beggs competing in the girl's competitions because Beggs is taking testosterone, which is a performance enhancing drug not allowed to be taken by any of the other competitors. That isn't a level playing field, that's allowing a chemical advantage to one competitor. If Beggs identifies as a boy/man but doesn't take testosterone then no problem at all. I did not say Beggs was taking it illegally, it obviously was within that state's rules, I just don't agree with their judgement. I thought disagreeing was still allowed?

You can research as much as you like-and start a thread about your findings GT. It won’t change the fact that TW are male and can only be in female competitions if they lie and cheat.
TM are female, so have no place in male competitions, despite your comments, but I’m sure I recollect you being asked for evidence about the vast number of TM you imply are cheating their way into male competitions and depriving males of medals.
Did you ever produce it or just come up with yet another deviation to avoid answering? Let me guess . . .

I am really not interested in individual cases, as they can (and will) be twisted and knotted and made to fit whichever scenario you think will back up the idea that women should not have anything for ourselves.

I am far more concerned about the majority of people, who simply want to restrict competition to people of the same sex, as has long been the case in most sports.

Doodledog

*Is that acceptable?*
Not to me it isn't.

Male-bodied people will have the advantage over female-bodied ones in most sports. Why do you think there are sex categories in the first place? Why are 'mixed doubles' evenly matched, with 2 of each sex? Why do many people prefer to watch the men's final at Wimbledon rather than the women's? - and I don't care if there is anecdotal evidence that any individual posters do the reverse - the figures are clear (11.3m v 5.4m)? Men tend to be faster and stronger.

Of course birth sex (which is, incidentally the same as death sex, and sex at any point in between) is what counts. What else influences performance to the same extent (all else being equal)?

So you are happy to see Mack Begg win girl's competitions because he isn't male bodied.
That's OK.
At least you are consistent
I do wonder though Why are the women complaining about CS listened to, but not the women complaining about Beggs?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Wow there's discrimination for you! You have to compete as I say or not compete at all. And I think you believe Beggs is a woman. Obviously not a woman you would grant any rights to.
Why should someone stop participating in something they love simply because a stupid regulation stops them participating at the level they want? They didn't make the regulation.
The degree of control some want to exert over transpeople is positively shocking.
The misinformation and bias is so complicated.
Let's look at it.
Transmen are women but should not compete in women's sports when they are transitioning
Transwomen are men and should not compete in women's sports, because they are men.

How does your open category solve anything? Beggs would still be designated a girl if the chosen method of deciding was the birth certificate. So could still compete in the girls
But let's remember you think he is a female.
How many more transmen would you stop participating in sport and how is that at all supporting these people you believe are women?

Any transman not on testosterone would in my world be fine to compete in the female event. Doping with testosterone is not allowed for any female who doesn't say they are transitioning, so why is there a special rule for some?

Do you not understand that the open category means Beggs could enter it under their identity of being a man using their trans name? But let's remember you think he is a female. Beggs is female, perfectly able to present and think of themself as a man, but biological sex cannot be changed. If the rules state no doping with testosterone, then Beggs has a choice, enter and stop the testosterone or decide not to enter. Why is Beggs taking testosterone? Is it to develop a more manly physique, lay down more muscle than can be done naturally? You seem to have missed that a female who had no intention or desire to transition could enter the open category. Given that you believe there are few differences between males and females, you'd surely expect many to prefer this open category?

It is interesting to note that the only females you ever want to promote are those that want to be men, they apparently are "the right sort of females"!

Is that acceptable?
Not to me it isn't.

Male-bodied people will have the advantage over female-bodied ones in most sports. Why do you think there are sex categories in the first place? Why are 'mixed doubles' evenly matched, with 2 of each sex? Why do many people prefer to watch the men's final at Wimbledon rather than the women's? - and I don't care if there is anecdotal evidence that any individual posters do the reverse - the figures are clear (11.3m v 5.4m)? Men tend to be faster and stronger.

Of course birth sex (which is, incidentally the same as death sex, and sex at any point in between) is what counts. What else influences performance to the same extent (all else being equal)?

Iam64

Gloriannie - do you ever consider you may be wrong? Ideologies can and history shows ,have been very damaging. I wonder how you encourage independent, considered thought in children or young people who are struggling to make sense of complex issues.
It isn’t the role of adults to bully, diminish or ensure others share their belief systems.

I'm not bullying anyone. I'm trying to make sense of what is proposed and how it would work.
The argument so far has centred around keeping sports segregated and stopping transwomen from competing in women's events.
Then I discovered some states in the US do segregate on the basis of birth sex and the case of Mack Beggs emerged.
He has so far been accused of illegal doping (completely wrongly)
And told he should have stopped competing.
Apparently that is fair and just-well not in my book!

GrannySomerset

Ears tightly closed as usual, Glorianny. There is no point in trying to have any kind of discussion with you.

Perhaps you could tell me what your solution to Mack Beggs would have been. If regulations are introduced which insist that birth sex is what counts then transwomen will have to compete as men, but equally, transmen will have to compete as women.
Is that acceptable?

Gloriannie - do you ever consider you may be wrong? Ideologies can and history shows ,have been very damaging. I wonder how you encourage independent, considered thought in children or young people who are struggling to make sense of complex issues.
It isn’t the role of adults to bully, diminish or ensure others share their belief systems.

Ears tightly closed as usual, Glorianny. There is no point in trying to have any kind of discussion with you.

Rosie51

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Wow there's discrimination for you! You have to compete as I say or not compete at all. And I think you believe Beggs is a woman. Obviously not a woman you would grant any rights to.
Why should someone stop participating in something they love simply because a stupid regulation stops them participating at the level they want? They didn't make the regulation.
The degree of control some want to exert over transpeople is positively shocking.
The misinformation and bias is so complicated.
Let's look at it.
Transmen are women but should not compete in women's sports when they are transitioning
Transwomen are men and should not compete in women's sports, because they are men.

How does your open category solve anything? Beggs would still be designated a girl if the chosen method of deciding was the birth certificate. So could still compete in the girls
But let's remember you think he is a female.
How many more transmen would you stop participating in sport and how is that at all supporting these people you believe are women?

Glorianny I have been consistent that I don't think Caster Semenya should medicate and enter the female category. I have been consistent that I don't think transwomen should medicate and enter the female category. I've long advocated for a female category and an open category available to all who wish to participate in sport but are not eligible for the female category. I believe that is as fair as it will get. People compete with their sexed bodies, not their inner feelings.

Beggs wasn't forced to compete against girls, Beggs could have refrained from competing, but made the decision (yes, legally I know) to compete knowing they had a physical advantage through taking low dose testosterone. We all make choices guided by our own moral compass. Some moral compasses put self before others.

Well said, grumppa.

Glorianny, I wasn't talking about sexual kinks, but about people 'identifying' outside of the reality of their biology. In any case, it is a dead cat. As I say, when I realised that the analogy was wasted, I changed it to a straight question about why you thought that schools segregated by age and sex.

Individual cases are neither here nor there, really. Whether CS or MB are guilty, innocent, misused or anything else is doubtless important to them, and to any legal case they wish to bring, but not to the principles at stake for an entire sex when it comes to competitive sport.

Sorry, I meant transwomen can compete as they wish.

grumppa

Bearing in mind the wide physical variations between males, and similarly between females, and of course between the sexes, there will always be distortions in competitive sport. The solution, or reductio ad absurdum, is staring us in the face.

All sporting events should be open, irrespective of sex or gender. This means that only an infinitesimal number of females will actually win anything, and many will be seriously injured, if not maimed for life, but that will be a small price to pay if it means that transmen can compete as they wish.

Not sure quite that that is what a transman has said. Mack Beggs didn't want to compete against girls, but he was forced to. If he had a choice he would have wrestled with men, quite how that can seriously injure females I don't know.

Bearing in mind the wide physical variations between males, and similarly between females, and of course between the sexes, there will always be distortions in competitive sport. The solution, or reductio ad absurdum, is staring us in the face.

All sporting events should be open, irrespective of sex or gender. This means that only an infinitesimal number of females will actually win anything, and many will be seriously injured, if not maimed for life, but that will be a small price to pay if it means that transmen can compete as they wish.

Doodledog

I changed the 'if an adult identified as a five year old' to 'why do you think schools segregate competitive sport by age, as I remembered that you don't do analogies. Men identifying as 5 year olds would have seemed far-fetched before the trans lobby turned sense inside out, but these days it seems it is not uncommon.

www.dailystar.co.uk/real-life/trans-mechanic-7-kids-lives-29215299

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10702865/Trans-killer-says-identifies-baby-demands-baby-food-dummy-prison-cell.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=DBhV-S7kEmA
(NB I have not watched the whole of this video so can't guarantee that there is nothing in it that may be offensive)

The point, as I would have thought was obvious, is that the reason schools segregate is for reasons of fairness, and the same rules should apply to professional sport. Expecting a woman to compete against a man is, in many sports, the same principle as expecting a young child to compete against an older one. Similarly, sports teams in school are separated by sex at puberty, so there are no mixed rugby teams, for instance, whilst prepubescent children usually do PE together, as there is no real risk.

I don't think it was completely unknown Doodledog I suspect it was mainly restricted to those who could afford to pay for the service, but probably was available in brothels. It wasn't of course front line news and couldn't be extended into everyday life, but I don't think it is a new thing.

The results of segregating by birth sex are shown in Mack Beggs story.

And Beggs complied entirely with the rules of the competition
University Interscholastic League rules allow Beggs to compete while taking testosterone, but school superintendents and athletic directors voted overwhelmingly last year on the gender requirement

We asked them is it OK if this transgender, this trans male were to take testosterone while transitioning and that's what we got, 'They can take it, but they can only compete on what's on their birth certificate,'" Beggs said. "That's when we were like, 'Well, then, there goes us asking if I can compete on the males.

Jim Baudhuin, an attorney and Dallas-area wrestling parent, has filed a lawsuit seeking to keep Beggs from competing against girls. The lawsuit mostly takes aim at the UIL for allowing Beggs to face girls while on testosterone.

After the lawsuit was filed, two girls forfeited their matches against Beggs at the regional tournament leading into the state meet. All four opponents wrestled Beggs at state, but some parents complained that it wasn't fair. There were some boos in the crowd after Beggs won the state title.

Beggs said the girls who forfeited at regionals were forced into that decision by their parents.

It's not like I'm doing this because I want to, like, call myself a boy and just dominate all these girls," Beggs said. "What do I get out of that? I don't get anything out of that. I was put in this position. Change the laws and then watch me wrestle boys

So nothing illegal

The concept that testosterone is banned for all competitors is in fact wrong. Transgender athletes who are transitionng can be granted permission to use the drug
^ Transgender athletes who require testosterone during the transitioning process (when transitioning from female to male) must apply for and be granted a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) in advance of their treatment.^

Are there different TUE requirements for transgender athletes?
No. USADA’s TUE Policy is the same for all athletes. In addition, WADA has developed a checklist for TUE applications for transgender athletes.

Smileless2012

I hadn't realised Begg was doping Rosie. As doping of any kind is banned he shouldn't have been able to compete at all with males or females.

He didn't want to compete against girls. The laws of the state insisted that he did so because his birth certificate said he was female and state law said he could only compete with girls.

The levels of discrimination posted on these threads are amazing.
Like the insistence that in order to compete Caster Semenya must take medication, but Mack Beggs shouldn't have. If you are to include all drugs and describe it as "doping" how come one is acceptable but the other isn't?
Like the insistence that girls protesting about transwomen have to be listened to, but girls protesting about transmen can be ignored.
You don't create a level playing field by insisting some must be subjected to a rule but others shouldn't.

I hadn't realised Begg was doping Rosie. As doping of any kind is banned he shouldn't have been able to compete at all with males or females.