Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

I changed the 'if an adult identified as a five year old' to 'why do you think schools segregate competitive sport by age, as I remembered that you don't do analogies. Men identifying as 5 year olds would have seemed far-fetched before the trans lobby turned sense inside out, but these days it seems it is not uncommon.

www.dailystar.co.uk/real-life/trans-mechanic-7-kids-lives-29215299

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10702865/Trans-killer-says-identifies-baby-demands-baby-food-dummy-prison-cell.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=DBhV-S7kEmA
(NB I have not watched the whole of this video so can't guarantee that there is nothing in it that may be offensive)

The point, as I would have thought was obvious, is that the reason schools segregate is for reasons of fairness, and the same rules should apply to professional sport. Expecting a woman to compete against a man is, in many sports, the same principle as expecting a young child to compete against an older one. Similarly, sports teams in school are separated by sex at puberty, so there are no mixed rugby teams, for instance, whilst prepubescent children usually do PE together, as there is no real risk.

Smileless I hadn't seen your post when I posted mine. As you can see Begg wasn't just a better female wrestler, Begg was doping with low level testosterone doses. In other words, cheating the female opponents.

As far as segregating sport is concerned there are states in the US where participation in school sports is mandated by your birth certificate sex. This as led to a transman winning the girls wrestling 2 years in succession. Mack Begg wanted to wrestle boys but was not permitted to.
www.open.ac.uk/blogs/OU-Sport/?p=2754
His testosterone remained within the accepted limits whilst he was competing.
Is this a better solution?

Mack Begg was on low dose testosterone, in other words doping. I thought even in the male category doping with artificial testosterone was the basis of disqualification, haven't we seen medals rescinded on that very basis? Ben Johnson of Canada was a prime example. Surely Begg would have been ineligible on that basis to compete against males, and should not have been allowed to compete against females while taking a banned substance. Begg obviously put their own selfish desires above fair competition when deciding to wrestle while doping.
Not going to address my answers to you in my last post Glorianny?

Smileless2012

It's the only solution. Mack Begg is female, a trans man is female. His testosterone remained within the accepted limits while he was competing so he had the testosterone levels of a female of that age.

Identifying as male with accepted testosterone levels didn't give him an advantage over the girls he wrestled with, he was the better wrestler. Are you suggesting that merely identifying as a boy miraculously gave him an unfair advantage Glorianny? Are we expected to believe that a trans woman loses the advantage of being male when competing against women,simply because the identify as female?

No doubt there would have been serious consequences for the school if he'd been allowed to compete with boys and had been injured.

The children's sports day analogy is not far fetched and I suspect you're ignoring it because it makes perfect sense and you're unable to come up with anything to argue against it.

This is Mack Beggs when he competed and won the girl's wrestling. Many of the girls objected to him. He wanted to compete in the men's wrestling but was refused permission. He was booed at events and said he contemplated giving up the sport he loved because of the restrictions placed on him and the hatred he faced. What is fair or reasonable about that?
Still think he should have been wrestling girls?

It's the only solution. Mack Begg is female, a trans man is female. His testosterone remained within the accepted limits while he was competing so he had the testosterone levels of a female of that age.

Identifying as male with accepted testosterone levels didn't give him an advantage over the girls he wrestled with, he was the better wrestler. Are you suggesting that merely identifying as a boy miraculously gave him an unfair advantage Glorianny? Are we expected to believe that a trans woman loses the advantage of being male when competing against women,simply because the identify as female?

No doubt there would have been serious consequences for the school if he'd been allowed to compete with boys and had been injured.

The children's sports day analogy is not far fetched and I suspect you're ignoring it because it makes perfect sense and you're unable to come up with anything to argue against it.

Glorianny

Well the children's sports day analogy is so far fetched 🤣🤣🤣🤣

What it seems as if you’re actually saying is that any analogy (and we’ve provided plenty) that doesn’t support the fact that lying and cheating to win in the way that some TW do. isn’t acceptable to you.
No surprise there then.
If you support cheating and lying to win it says as much about you as it does about the cheats and liars.

Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Well the children's sports day analogy is so far fetched I have ignored it but here is what happened in schools I taught in. Children ran in age groups because it is easier to organise that way and it keeps parents happy. Before the sports day we ran a number of heats and separated children into three groups fast , middle and slow. They then ran with their group on sports day. I have no doubt that the fastest in one year group could have overtaken the slowest in the year group above them and possibly in the year above that. Running ability is not an age thing.

As far as segregating sport is concerned there are states in the US where participation in school sports is mandated by your birth certificate sex. This as led to a transman winning the girls wrestling 2 years in succession. Mack Begg wanted to wrestle boys but was not permitted to.
www.open.ac.uk/blogs/OU-Sport/?p=2754
His testosterone remained within the accepted limits whilst he was competing.
Is this a better solution?

Within the parameters of sex, there will always be some who have an advantage over others, so does that mean that trans women should be able to compete against women? How will that provide equality?

Mollygo

Doodledog I’ll ask the children when I’m teaching tomorrow. I wonder what their response will be.

Good idea. I don’t think it is a difficult concept - different bodies have different properties, so different chances of winning. Of course you can’t measure every single attribute (and why would you want to?) but unless you want the 11 year olds to win every time you build in ways to make it fairer and therefore more sporting. Unless you care more about the older children than the younger ones, anyway.

Do let us know what they say?

Glorianny Caster Semenya is a woman Rosie51 the fact that you refuse to accept her as a woman just shows prejudice and discrimination
As does your refusal to recognise the plight of black women athletes.

The point which you seem unable to grasp is that sport is not a level playing field, some genetic conditions give some people advantages over others. The inequality will not be resolved through banning transwomen.

You can call Caster a woman if you so wish but what biological sex is Caster Semenya? What makes Caster's body different to any other male who went through male puberty? Are you unable to comprehend that people compete with bodies, not feelings?

Please show me where I have refused to recognise the plight of some black women athletes. I acknowledge that some black females have been suspected of not being female because of their build. That is wrong, and hopefully doesn't happen as frequently, and shouldn't happen at all. If sex passports for all competitors were introduced via one cheek swab at the start of their career, this could be avoided totally.

Of course sport isn't a totally level playing field or else there'd be no winners or losers everybody would tie every single competition. Sport should ensure that the field is as level as it can be and allowing men, whether they are transwomen or males with a DSD to compete against females is not starting from a fair position. If you let one male compete how do you justify not letting any male compete in the female class? How are you unable to grasp the fact that male athletes will have an unfair advantage against females? That you so despise biological females you are happy for males to take their awards is beyond sad. Your internalised misogyny stops you from any understanding or sympathy for females who have trained for years only to be beaten by a transwomen or male with a DSD.

I look forward to you demonstrating the balance of opportunity for all by listing the transmen who have taken medals against males in cycling, running, high jump, long jump, discus, shotput or any other athletic discipline. There must be loads since you state being transgender makes you the equal of the other sex.

Doodledog I’ll ask the children when I’m teaching tomorrow. I wonder what their response will be.

Yes it will. It will mean that within the parameters of their sex people can train and stretch themselves and be in with a chance of winning if they are good enough.

Remove the sex qualification and you may as well let 11 year olds run against 5 year olds. I ask again whether you would be happy with that happening in a primary school.

Rosie51

Glorianny Michael Phelps has ankles which are unusually flexible, giving him a kick advantage. His muscles produce half the normal amount of lactic acid which is significant for oxygen in the blood. His exceptional reach which is out of proportion to his height has won him races. It is widely believed that he has Marfan Syndrome.

Most of the black athletes who have been banned because of the testosterone rules are black. Many black people and countries think this is a racial issue, because black women's bodies do not conform to white standards.
I wonder do you as presumably a white woman have the right to decide what is and isn't racism?
Try Googling "Black women athletes face discrimination". There are loads of articles.

So once again what medication would you recommend for Michael Phelps to temper his advantage? I don't remember ever hearing that his fellow males (being as he competed in his own sex category) ever complained about his advantage. Your evidence for alleging he has Marfan syndrome? Do you know anything about that syndrome and the need for medical and often surgical interventions none of which Michael Phelps has had.

Banning males with the DSD 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, (a condition that is exclusive to males) is not evidence of a racial issue. How many times can it be said that Caster Semenya and other males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency are not female and are therefore ineligible to compete in the female category. If Caster is allowed to compete with or without reduced testosterone, why shouldn't any male be able to compete? Caster would scream loudly, I assume, when they were finishing out of the medals.

When you use anyone's skin colour as a point against them you are practising racial discrimination. And I've read plenty on "Black women athletes face discrimination". Perhaps you'd care to google 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency and then come back and explain what part of that doesn't make Caster Semenya a biological male who went through a male puberty, just like all the other males.

Caster Semenya is a woman Rosie51 the fact that you refuse to accept her as a woman just shows prejudice and discrimination
As does your refusal to recognise the plight of black women athletes.

The point which you seem unable to grasp is that sport is not a level playing field, some genetic conditions give some people advantages over others. The inequality will not be resolved through banning transwomen.

Glorianny Michael Phelps has ankles which are unusually flexible, giving him a kick advantage. His muscles produce half the normal amount of lactic acid which is significant for oxygen in the blood. His exceptional reach which is out of proportion to his height has won him races. It is widely believed that he has Marfan Syndrome.

Most of the black athletes who have been banned because of the testosterone rules are black. Many black people and countries think this is a racial issue, because black women's bodies do not conform to white standards.
I wonder do you as presumably a white woman have the right to decide what is and isn't racism?
Try Googling "Black women athletes face discrimination". There are loads of articles.

So once again what medication would you recommend for Michael Phelps to temper his advantage? I don't remember ever hearing that his fellow males (being as he competed in his own sex category) ever complained about his advantage. Your evidence for alleging he has Marfan syndrome? Do you know anything about that syndrome and the need for medical and often surgical interventions none of which Michael Phelps has had.

Banning males with the DSD 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, (a condition that is exclusive to males) is not evidence of a racial issue. How many times can it be said that Caster Semenya and other males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency are not female and are therefore ineligible to compete in the female category. If Caster is allowed to compete with or without reduced testosterone, why shouldn't any male be able to compete? Caster would scream loudly, I assume, when they were finishing out of the medals.

When you use anyone's skin colour as a point against them you are practising racial discrimination. And I've read plenty on "Black women athletes face discrimination". Perhaps you'd care to google 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency and then come back and explain what part of that doesn't make Caster Semenya a biological male who went through a male puberty, just like all the other males.

Yes, a female champion playing men sometimes is not the same as female aspiring champions being kept from the top by male-bodied players.

It does seem as though you are looking for ways to support the men - I know the report mentions hands, amongst other things, but you made it about that, then when I showed that your large hands are anomalous decided that hands are no longer important.

What about the age groups and sex segregation in school sports days? Do you have an answer for that, or are you choosing to ignore it?

Doodledog

Are Filipino hands proportionately small? I have no idea. What I do know is that women have made what is, to me, a convincing case for being allowed to continue competing against other women, but as ever, are being eradicated from their sport. Not by Filipinos, but by male-bodied people who have said the magic words.

IMO feminism is about supporting them, not coming up with reasons why they should be disbelieved, particularly as neither of us seems to be able to imagine a motive for their lying about the situation.

I ask again - why not have a transwomen team/league, so that male-bodied players who would like to be women and play against women can challenge one another? Wouldn't that be fairer?

I will also ask again - why do you think that school sports days have races separated by age groups in younger years, and by sex in older ones?

Some 5ft 4in people may have hands the same size as 6ft people Doodledog, so I would imagine they are varied. The hands thing isn't really evidence anyway. There are women with big hands and men with small hands, having big ones may be an advantage, so to what extent would you take that? Ban women with big hands?
I don't know what would be fairer Doodledog Pool is not something I have played. I did know over 50 years ago a women's snooker champion, she did play men sometimes.

Their hands

And another non-sequitur from G.
The size of her hands, the colour of their skin, their height, their testosterone levels still don’t make them female, so entering female competitions is cheating.
You support cheating?

Are Filipino hands proportionately small? I have no idea. What I do know is that women have made what is, to me, a convincing case for being allowed to continue competing against other women, but as ever, are being eradicated from their sport. Not by Filipinos, but by male-bodied people who have said the magic words.

IMO feminism is about supporting them, not coming up with reasons why they should be disbelieved, particularly as neither of us seems to be able to imagine a motive for their lying about the situation.

I ask again - why not have a transwomen team/league, so that male-bodied players who would like to be women and play against women can challenge one another? Wouldn't that be fairer?

I will also ask again - why do you think that school sports days have races separated by age groups in younger years, and by sex in older ones?

Doodledog

But can't you say that you saying that your hands are large means that most women's are smaller? If not, yours wouldn't be large, would they?

I think that evidence would show that women's hands are, on the whole, smaller than men's. Women's gloves are smaller than men's, both in shops and in knitting patterns.

From Healthline.com:
The average length of an adult male's hand is 7.6 inches — measured from the tip of the longest finger to the crease under the palm. The average length of an adult female's hand is 6.8 inches.

From PNAS.org (Proceedings of the National Academy of Science)
In human hands, the relative lengths of the second and fourth fingers differ between males and females. In males, the second digit (2D, or index finger) is usually shorter than the fourth digit (4D, or ring finger), whereas in females the index finger is generally equal to or longer than the ring finger

From Medical News Today:
Hand sizes vary according to a variety of factors, including biological sex and age. Males tend to have larger hands than females. There is also evidence that hand size is closely related to a person’s height.

I could go on. Your experience is just that, and not enough on which to bas disbelief of a group of women quoting lived experience as it impacts performance in their sport. What do you see as their motive?

And what about Filipinos and Thai people Doodledog how did they get to be world champions?
The average Filipino man is 163.22cm (5 feet 4.25 inches) tall.
Their hand size will be proportionally small.
I don't know why the women are protesting. I'm just looking for evidence to support their stance and nothing you have posted refers to pool or shows they have a valid point.

It may not be lying, but it is certainly not a view entirely supported by the evidence. I do think that if women want to see sport with more equality then they should make sure that their requests are built on secure and uncontroversial evidence. In this case it isn't.
Anything you want to drag in Glorianny, won’t alter the fact that TW who are entering female sports competitions are cheating.
Not because of their size,
or their hand-span,
or the colour of their skin,
or their testosterone levels,
but because they are male.

All the accusations that it’s a lie to call CS a man, sit rather strangely next to your support of the lie that TW are women.
Choosing which lie to accept because one suits your purpose and the other doesn’t reflect well on you.

Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Semenya had been examined carefully under the previous rules and judged woman enough to compete. Under both the sex and gender regulations she has been passed to compete as a woman.

Leaked medical records show that Caster Semenya has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, a condition that is exclusive to males. Just because Caster was able to compete unfairly in the past is no reason to allow a male to compete against females now. Caster thinking of themself as a woman is neither here nor there, Caster is male and no amount of words can change biological fact. That the authorities are willing to ignore the male puberty advantage if Caster reduces testosterone levels from the men's range down to a level that exceeds the majority of women, is a concession not a punishment.

An answer to Mollygo's question would be good.

So someone who is judged a woman through genital examination, has always lived as a woman is suddenly designated as a man because of a test which she had never seen before, and is then told she must medicate before she can compete again and that is fair in your view.

So why
Is Michael Phelps who is a white man with a genetic anomaly which gives him an advantage permitted to compete without taking medication to correct his condition
But
Caster Semenya who is a black women with a genetic anomaly which gives her an advantage expected to take medication which she has tried but found had negative side effects
(Clue women's sport is mainly administered by white men)

Michael Phelps does not have a genetic anomaly unless you consider all very tall people with large hands and feet 'genetic anomalies'. What medication can you suggest to reduce his height and foot size? Testosterone reduction doesn't achieve that in transwomen, or males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency.
The fact of Phelps being white is irrelevant except to anyone who wants to judge against him based on his skin colour. Time to examine your prejudice?

Caster Semenya is a male with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, and the fact Caster is black is not the reason Caster should not compete against females, but because Caster is male. Caster Semenya could have skin as white as snow and I'd still think being male is enough to disqualify them from entering the female competition.

As to your "clue" can you tell me who these 'white men' are and whether they're male or female 'men' since you'd include both varieties, or aren't you so inclusive when it comes to your anti points?

Michael Phelps has ankles which are unusually flexible, giving him a kick advantage. His muscles produce half the normal amount of lactic acid which is significant for oxygen in the blood. His exceptional reach which is out of proportion to his height has won him races. It is widely believed that he has Marfan Syndrome.

Most of the black athletes who have been banned because of the testosterone rules are black. Many black people and countries think this is a racial issue, because black women's bodies do not conform to white standards.
I wonder do you as presumably a white woman have the right to decide what is and isn't racism?
Try Googling "Black women athletes face discrimination". There are loads of articles.

But can't you say that you saying that your hands are large means that most women's are smaller? If not, yours wouldn't be large, would they?

I think that evidence would show that women's hands are, on the whole, smaller than men's. Women's gloves are smaller than men's, both in shops and in knitting patterns.

From Healthline.com:
The average length of an adult male's hand is 7.6 inches — measured from the tip of the longest finger to the crease under the palm. The average length of an adult female's hand is 6.8 inches.

From PNAS.org (Proceedings of the National Academy of Science)
In human hands, the relative lengths of the second and fourth fingers differ between males and females. In males, the second digit (2D, or index finger) is usually shorter than the fourth digit (4D, or ring finger), whereas in females the index finger is generally equal to or longer than the ring finger

From Medical News Today:
Hand sizes vary according to a variety of factors, including biological sex and age. Males tend to have larger hands than females. There is also evidence that hand size is closely related to a person’s height.

I could go on. Your experience is just that, and not enough on which to bas disbelief of a group of women quoting lived experience as it impacts performance in their sport. What do you see as their motive?

Doodledog

^Do you expect me to support something without looking into it simply because it is women proposing it?^
No. But it's not me who claims that it is unfeminist to speak against a woman, is it? I even started a thread back in the day to discuss the notion of feminism meaning blindly supporting people just because they are women. I think each case should be taken on merit, and in the case of the pool players, it makes perfect sense to me that they are speaking the truth and that they are being disadvantaged.

I don't automatically support women now because recent events and people have shown me how many women are not actually in favour of equality. I suppose my distrust began with Thatcher and has been reinforced recently by politicians and Posie Parker. I now carefully look at what is being proposed and who is proposing it.
I agree that Thatcher wasn't remotely feminist, and certainly didn't support her because she was a woman. I never supported her at all because I disagreed with her policies. I don't agree with everything PP says either, but I do think she speaks sense on trans issues. As I keep saying, to me, thinking thing (A) doesn't necessarily mean that I think thing (B).

Sadly some women really do not support equality. It doesn't make me less of a feminist.
In itself, no. Of course what 'some women' do doesn't reflect on any of us as individuals, but when someone never supports women against men or male-bodied people it shows. I keep asking whether you can give an example of when you have supported women in these circumstances and you just quote intersectional feminism as though that is a get-out.

I'd give the women I disagree with every support if they showed that there was inequality in the way they were being treated, but I need to know there is real inequality first. If the subject is debatable then I expect it to be debated not automatically agreed with.
So do I, but the difference is that I don't decide whether there is real inequality by assuming that women are exaggerating or lying - to me that is not feminism. I assume that there is truth in what they say, listen when people point out anomalies and then decide. I don't agree with all feminists on all things, just as I don't agree with all socialists or all of the so-called 'gender critical' on everything. I think for myself.

In the case of sports, I think that as so many women in so many sporting fields have said that competing against transwomen puts them at a disadvantage, then they should be listened to. Even if they are wrong (which I don't think they are, as logic and biology show otherwise) their word should be taken seriously and they shouldn't be over-ruled by committees or anyone else. If transwomen want to compete 'as women' they should form a transwomen team/league as appropriate, and do so against others of their body type and biological make-up.

Doodledog you posted about women complaining they were impacted in pool competitions by their lack of strength, hand size and height. A little research revealed to me that two of the best pool teams in the world were Filipino and Thai, neither countries which are known for the height of their population. There is discussion on the net about the advantages and disadvantages of height. As for hand size, much like feet the concept of the smaller hand size for women is not necessarily true. I have large hands.
So I question the post. It may not be lying, but it is certainly not a view entirely supported by the evidence. I do think that if women want to see sport with more equality then they should make sure that their requests are built on secure and uncontroversial evidence. In this case it isn't.

Sorry - formatting fail.