Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Do you expect me to support something without looking into it simply because it is women proposing it?
No. But it's not me who claims that it is unfeminist to speak against a woman, is it? I even started a thread back in the day to discuss the notion of feminism meaning blindly supporting people just because they are women. I think each case should be taken on merit, and in the case of the pool players, it makes perfect sense to me that they are speaking the truth and that they are being disadvantaged.

I don't automatically support women now because recent events and people have shown me how many women are not actually in favour of equality. I suppose my distrust began with Thatcher and has been reinforced recently by politicians and Posie Parker. I now carefully look at what is being proposed and who is proposing it.
I agree that Thatcher wasn't remotely feminist, and certainly didn't support her because she was a woman. I never supported her at all because I disagreed with her policies. I don't agree with everything PP says either, but I do think she speaks sense on trans issues. As I keep saying, to me, thinking thing (A) doesn't necessarily mean that I think thing (B).

Sadly some women really do not support equality. It doesn't make me less of a feminist.
In itself, no. Of course what 'some women' do doesn't reflect on any of us as individuals, but when someone never supports women against men or male-bodied people it shows. I keep asking whether you can give an example of when you have supported women in these circumstances and you just quote intersectional feminism as though that is a get-out.

I'd give the women I disagree with every support if they showed that there was inequality in the way they were being treated, but I need to know there is real inequality first. If the subject is debatable then I expect it to be debated not automatically agreed with.
So do I, but the difference is that I don't decide whether there is real inequality by assuming that women are exaggerating or lying - to me that is not feminism. I assume that there is truth in what they say, listen when people point out anomalies and then decide. I don't agree with all feminists on all things, just as I don't agree with all socialists or all of the so-called 'gender critical' on everything. I think for myself.

In the case of sports, I think that as so many women in so many sporting fields have said that competing against transwomen puts them at a disadvantage, then they should be listened to. Even if they are wrong (which I don't think they are, as logic and biology show otherwise) their word should be taken seriously and they shouldn't be over-ruled by committees or anyone else. If transwomen want to compete 'as women' they should form a transwomen team/league as appropriate, and do so against others of their body type and biological make-up.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Semenya had been examined carefully under the previous rules and judged woman enough to compete. Under both the sex and gender regulations she has been passed to compete as a woman.

Leaked medical records show that Caster Semenya has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, a condition that is exclusive to males. Just because Caster was able to compete unfairly in the past is no reason to allow a male to compete against females now. Caster thinking of themself as a woman is neither here nor there, Caster is male and no amount of words can change biological fact. That the authorities are willing to ignore the male puberty advantage if Caster reduces testosterone levels from the men's range down to a level that exceeds the majority of women, is a concession not a punishment.

An answer to Mollygo's question would be good.

So someone who is judged a woman through genital examination, has always lived as a woman is suddenly designated as a man because of a test which she had never seen before, and is then told she must medicate before she can compete again and that is fair in your view.

So why
Is Michael Phelps who is a white man with a genetic anomaly which gives him an advantage permitted to compete without taking medication to correct his condition
But
Caster Semenya who is a black women with a genetic anomaly which gives her an advantage expected to take medication which she has tried but found had negative side effects
(Clue women's sport is mainly administered by white men)

Michael Phelps does not have a genetic anomaly unless you consider all very tall people with large hands and feet 'genetic anomalies'. What medication can you suggest to reduce his height and foot size? Testosterone reduction doesn't achieve that in transwomen, or males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency.
The fact of Phelps being white is irrelevant except to anyone who wants to judge against him based on his skin colour. Time to examine your prejudice?

Caster Semenya is a male with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, and the fact Caster is black is not the reason Caster should not compete against females, but because Caster is male. Caster Semenya could have skin as white as snow and I'd still think being male is enough to disqualify them from entering the female competition.

As to your "clue" can you tell me who these 'white men' are and whether they're male or female 'men' since you'd include both varieties, or aren't you so inclusive when it comes to your anti points?

As long as it takes to get the message through that *Transwomen are not female ...... and it's unlikely to be the last thread on this subject DAR.

As long as it takes to get the message through that Transwomen are not female (even Glorianny admitted that) and that the cheating, lying and violence practised by TRA and some trans is harmful not only to females, but also to the transwomen who don’t support the idea of lying and cheating to achieve success.

It will go on as long as people want to contribute to it. Nobody is forced to read it if they aren’t interested. Just like every other thread really.

I dont really understand what point, if any, you are making DAR.

Longer, of course.

How much linger can this thread go on?

Yet another diversion by G/T . . . this time into politics.
This thread started about the unfairness of a male pretending to be a woman being appointed.
It digressed as it always does into the lying and cheating of some males (TW are male) to misappropriate other things to which females are entitled.
Now G/T has decided that if she can’t deny that, she’ll go for the unfairness of women against women.
No one has denied that, but it’s nothing to do with the support for TW lying and cheating their way into female sports, safe spaces etc.
Interesting concept that anyone thinks lying or cheating is the way to achieve equality, but evidently some do.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

www.crowdjustice.com/case/let-women-play-pool/

Here is an appeal from female pool players who are losing out to transwomen. In my ignorance I wouldn’t have thought that pool would be particularly affected by sex, but if you read the text it is clearly explained why it matters that women play other women, and the impact on female players when transwomen muscle in.

How can this be justified at all, never mind thought to be happening in the name of equality?

That is interesting, but there is a big debate on the internet about what is an advantage or disadvantage as far as playing pool is concerned. Height is one of the discussions. Some say it matters, some say it doesn't. One of the points against any benefit of height or size is the success of the Filipino team.
As far as hands go I have quite large hands in comparison with many women and with some men.

Is there ever going to be a time when you agree that women's rights are important?

I have read a fair bit about intersectional feminism over the years, and to me it is common sense in some ways, eg the rights of women to work versus the cost of paying for childcare and cleaners versus the wages that nannies and cleaners (usually women) can earn. But in others it just waters down feminism and gives people excuses to treat other groups badly whilst virtue signalling that they are supporting someone else.

I am no an adherent to any political, religious or social groups. I don't agree that if I think thing (a) it must follow that I will think thing (b), so you won't find me 'speaking as' anything that is not immutable, and even then, I am one woman who can't speak for everyone, and I don't think that others can do so either. But still, I can't see the IF insistence on finding ways to support male claims to trample on women as anything other than misogyny. It is so relentless. I may agree or disagree if sometimes people say 'yes, this would be better for women but it would be unfair to men/children/others', but every single time there is a call for support for women whose lives are being altered for the worse because men want theirs to be bettered, an obscure reason is found to put the men first. The Filipino pool team is a perfect example of this in action. How many people have heard of this or would use it as an example to crush female players in the UK?

Sorry I didn't support anything. Just point out that the game of pool is much debated on the internet and that the success of the Filipino pool team was given as a reason for saying height has no benefit. I don't suppose many have heard of it, but I did my research and that was what emerged. It isn't difficult to do now.
Do you expect me to support something without looking into it simply because it is women proposing it?

I don't automatically support women now because recent events and people have shown me how many women are not actually in favour of equality. I suppose my distrust began with Thatcher and has been reinforced recently by politicians and Posie Parker. I now carefully look at what is being proposed and who is proposing it. Sadly some women really do not support equality. It doesn't make me less of a feminist. I'd give the women I disagree with every support if they showed that there was inequality in the way they were being treated, but I need to know there is real inequality first. If the subject is debatable then I expect it to be debated not automatically agreed with.

Glorianny. You tend not to read anything which proves you wrong, so saying you tend not to read my posts is nothing new. 🤣🤣🤣
You admitted that Transwomen are not women. That’s a start.
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Glorianny

Doodledog

www.crowdjustice.com/case/let-women-play-pool/

Here is an appeal from female pool players who are losing out to transwomen. In my ignorance I wouldn’t have thought that pool would be particularly affected by sex, but if you read the text it is clearly explained why it matters that women play other women, and the impact on female players when transwomen muscle in.

How can this be justified at all, never mind thought to be happening in the name of equality?

That is interesting, but there is a big debate on the internet about what is an advantage or disadvantage as far as playing pool is concerned. Height is one of the discussions. Some say it matters, some say it doesn't. One of the points against any benefit of height or size is the success of the Filipino team.
As far as hands go I have quite large hands in comparison with many women and with some men.

Is there ever going to be a time when you agree that women's rights are important?

I have read a fair bit about intersectional feminism over the years, and to me it is common sense in some ways, eg the rights of women to work versus the cost of paying for childcare and cleaners versus the wages that nannies and cleaners (usually women) can earn. But in others it just waters down feminism and gives people excuses to treat other groups badly whilst virtue signalling that they are supporting someone else.

I am no an adherent to any political, religious or social groups. I don't agree that if I think thing (a) it must follow that I will think thing (b), so you won't find me 'speaking as' anything that is not immutable, and even then, I am one woman who can't speak for everyone, and I don't think that others can do so either. But still, I can't see the IF insistence on finding ways to support male claims to trample on women as anything other than misogyny. It is so relentless. I may agree or disagree if sometimes people say 'yes, this would be better for women but it would be unfair to men/children/others', but every single time there is a call for support for women whose lives are being altered for the worse because men want theirs to be bettered, an obscure reason is found to put the men first. The Filipino pool team is a perfect example of this in action. How many people have heard of this or would use it as an example to crush female players in the UK?

It's ridiculous and has absolutely nothing to do with equality. TW who compete against women are cheating and as you say Iam doesn't qualify as sporting success.

Did Mollygo ask a question?
I tend not to read her rants and misinterpretations

Rosie51

^Semenya had been examined carefully under the previous rules and judged woman enough to compete. Under both the sex and gender regulations she has been passed to compete as a woman.^

Leaked medical records show that Caster Semenya has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, a condition that is exclusive to males. Just because Caster was able to compete unfairly in the past is no reason to allow a male to compete against females now. Caster thinking of themself as a woman is neither here nor there, Caster is male and no amount of words can change biological fact. That the authorities are willing to ignore the male puberty advantage if Caster reduces testosterone levels from the men's range down to a level that exceeds the majority of women, is a concession not a punishment.

An answer to Mollygo's question would be good.

So someone who is judged a woman through genital examination, has always lived as a woman is suddenly designated as a man because of a test which she had never seen before, and is then told she must medicate before she can compete again and that is fair in your view.

So why
Is Michael Phelps who is a white man with a genetic anomaly which gives him an advantage permitted to compete without taking medication to correct his condition
But
Caster Semenya who is a black women with a genetic anomaly which gives her an advantage expected to take medication which she has tried but found had negative side effects
(Clue women's sport is mainly administered by white men)

Doodledog

www.crowdjustice.com/case/let-women-play-pool/

Here is an appeal from female pool players who are losing out to transwomen. In my ignorance I wouldn’t have thought that pool would be particularly affected by sex, but if you read the text it is clearly explained why it matters that women play other women, and the impact on female players when transwomen muscle in.

How can this be justified at all, never mind thought to be happening in the name of equality?

That is interesting, but there is a big debate on the internet about what is an advantage or disadvantage as far as playing pool is concerned. Height is one of the discussions. Some say it matters, some say it doesn't. One of the points against any benefit of height or size is the success of the Filipino team.
As far as hands go I have quite large hands in comparison with many women and with some men.

Iam64

Yet another report this morning of 1st and 2nd place in a women’s cycle race going to trans women who went through puberty as males. They look like men, standing head and shoulders above the woman who came 3rd
I genuinely can see no way this qualifies as sporting success

It doesn’t qualify as sporting success.
just another example of male cheats prospering to the detriment of females.

Until the sporting bodies stop pandering to male cheats, perhaps there should be a change to the medal system.

Rainbow medals given when dishonest TW win by cheating ( i.e. entering a female competition) and gold, silver, and bronze given to the top three females racing honestly.
Trans Women Are Transwomen. They are not women because they are not female.
All the discussions about CS that are usually dragged in here don’t change the fact that TW who enter female competitions are cheats-and sadly, some females support their right to cheat and lie.

Semenya had been examined carefully under the previous rules and judged woman enough to compete. Under both the sex and gender regulations she has been passed to compete as a woman.

Leaked medical records show that Caster Semenya has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, a condition that is exclusive to males. Just because Caster was able to compete unfairly in the past is no reason to allow a male to compete against females now. Caster thinking of themself as a woman is neither here nor there, Caster is male and no amount of words can change biological fact. That the authorities are willing to ignore the male puberty advantage if Caster reduces testosterone levels from the men's range down to a level that exceeds the majority of women, is a concession not a punishment.

An answer to Mollygo's question would be good.

What a coincidence it is that so many sportsmen have transitioned. I wonder if the figures for council workers or call centre staff (where there is no immediate inbuilt advantage in competing with women) are anything remotely the same?

Yet another report this morning of 1st and 2nd place in a women’s cycle race going to trans women who went through puberty as males. They look like men, standing head and shoulders above the woman who came 3rd
I genuinely can see no way this qualifies as sporting success

www.crowdjustice.com/case/let-women-play-pool/

Here is an appeal from female pool players who are losing out to transwomen. In my ignorance I wouldn’t have thought that pool would be particularly affected by sex, but if you read the text it is clearly explained why it matters that women play other women, and the impact on female players when transwomen muscle in.

How can this be justified at all, never mind thought to be happening in the name of equality?

There doesn't appear to be any sympathy for the females who have trained hard and are then denied medals by males masquerading as female.
Since you repeatedly use Caster Semanya being a woman as an example of unfair treatment, how do you justify TW (who are male) trying to compete in female races as fair?

How do the sex and gender regulations differ? As there are different regs it appears that the athletics authorities must recognise that sex and gender are different, which makes something of a nonsense of having two sets of regulations, but I'd be interested to know how it works.

Caster Semenya has a DSD that only affects males. I agree the ruling that Caster may compete with testosterone reduction is ridiculous, as that will not undo the male puberty advantages Caster has. That's down to the cowardice of the sporting authorities who despite being "white men" don't have the courage to take the backlash of making female sport open only to biological females. The link you provided and endorsed earlier in the thread even said (point 6)

The decision is unjust in several ways.

Firstly, it was the IAAF which moved from sex to gender definition of female in 1990s. Semenya has entered competition, trained and competed fairly under the rules. To change them now will be undermine her capacity to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment.
This would seem to confirm that Semenya has a 'woman' gender but not a female sex. There doesn't appear to be any sympathy for the females who have trained hard but are unfairly unable to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment.

Semenya had been examined carefully under the previous rules and judged woman enough to compete. Under both the sex and gender regulations she has been passed to compete as a woman.
She is a woman who is unable to compete, work and live, after a lifetime of investment
Why? Because she kept winning.

I did misunderstand. Sorry. I was sitting in the docs having a quiet panic, so I didn’t research like I usually do. Your actual point is even clearer about the fairness if separate sex competitions.
Should be male, female and open. Then both sexes have a choice of their own sex or the open.