Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Mollygo

I'm beginning to think that trying to prevent women from declaring themselves a group - by diminishing their status with terminology like "chest feeders", "menstruators", "gestational parents", etc, and demanding entry to their hitherto single-sex spaces - is the supreme act of male oppression.

These are not the actions of transwomen just "trying to live their best lives" inclusively with the rest of society. They are not the actions of a man who has found inner peace by denying his biological sex and identifying with women... they are the actions of a male narcissistic ego when it is challenged by a woman.

However, the Daily Mail is not my usual 'go-to' for news or discussions on these matters because it, and the Express, are on a crusade against "wokeism", so they have an agenda and are clearly not unbiased.

But there is evidence elsewhere, in more sober media, of the outrageous and violent actions of men - some wearing balaclavas, attacking feminists because they are gender critical and will not accept that TWAW.

And still Glorianny is unable to tell me what she means by men in her The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men. what definition of men is she using, biological males, transmen just who? The silence is so revealing, as I expect everyone but Glorianny can see.

Glorianny you do realise that compelled speech is a breach of the rights of others?

For some reason this poem by Wendy Cope popped into my mind.

Smileless2012

All women are in my sisterhood Glorianny and my belief that all should be treated equally regardless of their gender, race and colour.

Yes.

How has perpetuating a lie suddenly become the right thing to do according to some people?
I have read posts from some people decrying the alleged lying during Covid, or by the government, or by different sides in the current war, etc.
But perpetrating and perpetuating the lie that people can change sex seems to be acceptable.

Its all about control and power. Say the words just say them.

I am not going to agree with your sexist stereotypes in the same way I wouldnt agree with racist ones. Gender is oppressive to both men and women.

Well there is one of the rights you are denying them. The right to identify as they wish
I accept any member of the trans community as my equal, but I will never accept the lie that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man.
You are entitled to believe that a transwoman is a man. You are not entitled to force your belief onto them, which you do by misgendering them.

With regard to point 8 Caster Semenya is reactive to testosterone, and their body has developed accordingly
Another misconception.
^They may affect how sex-related hormones function in the body, such as when an individual with XY chromosomes
cannot absorb or utilize testosterone. Intersex conditions may also affect internal or external sex characteristics, such as
cases when an individual’s genitalia at birth defies easy classification as male or female^
More here from the Women's Sports foundation www.womenssportsfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/participation-of-intersex-athletes-in-womens-sports.pdf .

All women are in my sisterhood Glorianny and my belief that all should be treated equally regardless of their gender, race and colour.

I have asked repeatedly on these threads what rights the transgender community are denied and it's never answered, because they're not being denied any. Unless of course someone's prepared to say that those few who do so, are wanting to take away the long and hard fought for rights of women.

I accept any member of the trans community as my equal, but I will never accept the lie that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man.

And no, I don't believe for one moment that I would be welcomed unless of course I was prepared to perpetuate a lie, and that is not something I will ever do.

With regard to point 8 Caster Semenya is reactive to testosterone, and their body has developed accordingly.

Do you not understand the 12% difference is between elite male athletes and elite female athletes? A mediocre male athlete may well only be 2% better than an elite female athlete.

Perhaps you could open your mind enough to understand the heartbreak of women who train for years only to lose medals and placings to transwomen who decide after male puberty advantage that they aren't just mediocre male athletes but rather better "women" athletes. I know Caster does not identify as transgender, but you have no problem with transwomen taking women's prizes.

You have forgotten to tell me how you're classifying the men in your assertion criteria set as always by men . You must surely know how you're defining them....male, tranman..? Is your lack of answer because it would be too embarrassing to give an honest one?

Just reading with an open mind and not seeking offenses to women would help you. Try thinking Caster Semenya has been shown to have a vagina, she was born with one, she meets some of the requirements you have said women should have.

Please show where I have said that having a vagina is a requirement of being a woman? The only requirement, just the one, is to be born a female baby and live into adulthood when you are a woman. It really isn't rocket science, just basic biology. You are aware that the sex of a baby can be determined while in utero, with absolute certainty? Incidentally had Semenya been DNA tested at birth, as can happen world wide to babies born with ambiguous genitalia, the XY chromosomes would have confirmed a male baby.

Taking any sort of performance changing drugs is not allowed in sport. Oh, except for . . .

Rosie51

I just knew Glorianny would ignore my post. Says things like "you won't read it, your minds are closed" then when I've read it and made my comments, is so biased as not to even acknowledge that I did read it. And can't or won't elaborate on who are the men in criteria set as always by men I need to know the definition of these men in order to comment. Are they transmen? Or are they biological men? A mix of the two?

Rosie51 what is the point when you either misunderstand something deliberately or are unable to open your mind to any opinions.
But just of interest
Point 8 follows from the lack of research into the benefits of natural testosterone for intersex women. There is little evidence that this gives any advantage. If the testosterone receptors in the individual's body fail to respond it is quite reasonable to assume that the assumed benefit may not be applicable. Nothing to do with dismissing women but to do with not using evidence based science.

Points 9 &10 deal with the issue of choice. Intersex women are compelled to take the medication and not for health reasons, but the writer considers if there is an advantage ciswomen should be permitted to use medication to raise their testosterone if they so wish. No one is forcing women to take anything.

Point 2 does not conflate anything. It simply points out that XX women are treated differently to XY women

Point3. Is once again to do with the lack of real evidence. A 2% difference is much below the 12% meaning that the influence of the testosterone may in fact not be proven.

Just reading with an open mind and not seeking offenses to women would help you. Try thinking Caster Semenya has been shown to have a vagina, she was born with one, she meets some of the requirements you have said women should have.

Now we are faced with this sort of thing.
In August, a trans-identified male in the United Kingdom prompted backlash after he complained about his lack of access to the women’s changing rooms at a Sheffield hotel. Anne Coombes, 65, first made headlines after he slammed a worker at the Mercure Hotel for giving him a changing room pass for the unisex facilities instead of the women-only area.

The unisex area would seem to be a reasonable compromise - he is not a female, but he wasn’t obliged to use a men’s changing area.

shortly after, information began to circulate demonstrating that Coombes had an apparent “breastfeeding” fetish, and had interacted with accounts eroticizing motherhood and lactation.

Then there’s the TW who was offended because the staff in Victoria’s Secret made him wait until the women in the changing rooms had finished using it, and then let him use it uninterrupted whilst he tried on bras. He was offended by both actions-totally disinterested in how women felt about having a man in the changing rooms. On social media, he evidently said he doesn’t like VS bras as they don’t fit him-so why go there at all?
These males aren’t interested in fairness to women, or provision of unisex areas which acknowledge that they are transwomen and don’t oblige them to use male facilities.

I just knew Glorianny would ignore my post. Says things like "you won't read it, your minds are closed" then when I've read it and made my comments, is so biased as not to even acknowledge that I did read it. And can't or won't elaborate on who are the men in criteria set as always by men I need to know the definition of these men in order to comment. Are they transmen? Or are they biological men? A mix of the two?

Say the words I want you to say now

Can't you see the irony when you complain about 'the wrong sort of woman' yet say things like the above to people on here?

I'd be ashamed to type the words, such is the hypocrisy.

And I am still wondering who you ( Glorianny ) were referring to with your accusation of 'peddling hatred' upthread. I realise that you downgraded the insult to 'peddling fear', but that doesn't answer the question about the insult's intended accused.

Smileless2012

Unbelievable isn't it Doodledog to see such treatment being metered out. Hardly befitting a sisterhood is it.

Well who is left in your sisterhood anyway? It isn't an inclusive sisterhood. It's one where you decide who is admitted. Your sisterhood bears no resemblance to mine, where you would be welcome by the way. You'd just have to stop calling people men and accept transwomen and intersex women are your sisters. (Not that you'd know if there was one standing next to you anyway)

Unbelievable isn't it Doodledog to see such treatment being metered out. Hardly befitting a sisterhood is it.

Glorianny

So I'm wrong because I post links to judgements by various bodies, which you all seem prepared to ignore in favour of your own prejudices.
You call transwomen men
You call an intersex woman a man.
Honestly it is pure prejudice.
There is more information about the subject here theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448
But I don't expect you to read it. Your minds are closed.

Well I've just read it. Did you read it all the way through? It lists 10 points to refute the decision.

Point 1 immediately says the ruling confuses sex with gender.
Sex determination was abandoned in the 1990s in favour of gender. From the 2000 Sydney Olympics forwards, there were no tests of gender other than self-identification. So athletes compete with their gender not their sexed bodies do they?

Point 2 conflates testosterone levels in XY people (males) with those in XX (females) with a rare condition congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

Point 3 draws on the difference testosterone makes between males and females in all events is estimated to be up to 12% (all other items being equal). But Semenya’s best time is only 2% faster than her competitors. this is easily explained by Semenya not being an elite athlete when compared with the correct sex class. Mediocre men can still beat elite women, in fact boys' sporting records often exceed elite women's around the age of 15 years.

Point 4 is beyond parody. The self-professed values of sport include the development of one’s own talent . but don't worry about women cheated out of their achievements eh?

Point 5 is a repeat of point 2

Point 6 argues If the rules are to be changed, they should not affect athletes who agreed to the current rules, but future athletes.There should be a “grandmother clause” for current athletes, like Semenya or else they are unfairly burdened by the bungles of the IAAF. Even if these rules could be considered justified, they should apply to future athletes as soon as possible after puberty. and justice is about giving priority to the worst off in our society so female athletes should just accept being cheated out of their just rewards and that's justice?

Point 7 states The concern is that if “XY females” are allowed to compete in the female category, formerly male transgender females will follow and rob cisgender women of their medals. the author states transgender athletes can be dealt with by different rules, acknowledging they have had a male puberty.

Point 8 argues that testosterone reduction These interventions interfere with a normally functioning organism for highly uncertain benefits to other people. This is disproportionate and unreasonable. so fairness to women athletes is disproportionate?

Point 9 states with regard to testosterone reducing medication Their use would be “off label” and is for purposes other than the athlete’s health. if these medications adversely affect male athlete's health that raises questions about their use in other situations ?

Point 10 is , well what can I say. I have argued athletes should be able take performance-enhancing substances within the normal physiological range. This would mean cisgender female athletes could take testosterone up to 5 nMol/L. This would reduce any advantage Semenya may have. So males suppressing testosterone bad for their health, but females supplementing with testosterone suddenly OK. Except Semenya won't lower testosterone levels to <5nMol/L.

Are you going to answer my question in my earlier post criteria set as always by men when you use men here do you mean biological males or some other category, it gets so confusing when these words have no definitive meaning? Maybe you're confused by your own usage?

I agree with all of that Smiles, and would add that it is we who are accused of making personal comments and 'hounding', when a cursory glance at this thread would show anyone just where these comments are coming from, and to whom they are addressed.

So, how did we get here .......? Labelling and 'bettering' have got us here Dickens.

Intersectional feminists believing they have the moral high ground because they, and only they are inclusive. They and only they are accepting of the trans gender community, unlike the rest of of us second class feminists, who care only for biological women. They are so much more enlightened than we are; so much 'better'.

We are TERFS who 'peddle hate' and yet we are not the ones doing and saying the awful things that are designed to shut us up, to deny us the language that belongs to us, to attempt to infiltrate the places that belong to us and to deny us our right to fair competition in sport.

Oh the irony of what I've seen here on GN. Intersectional feminists, whose all inclusive mantra when it comes to any discussion about transgender, far from including women, attempts to exclude us.

We've even been demoted from 'second class feminists' to a cult status.

It makes no difference whether I believe transwomen are men or not. If I say the magic words it wont have any impact on a transwomans sex.

Prejudiced, closed-minded, as well as hate-peddling and pathetic. More insults, and more of you deciding how others think. Please remember this next time you moan about how you consider you are treated on these threads?

As people keep saying, transwomen are transwomen. I am not going to refer to them as women, as women are women, and there is an obvious difference. It doesn't matter how people 'identify', we are what we are, and colonising the language so that it is impossible to tell whether people are talking about men or women, and women get subsumed into a category that takes no account of the shared experiences of women, but includes anyone who chooses to call themselves female.

As for 'intersex' people (or people with DSDs as they prefer to be known), it is not prejudiced to say that someone who has gone through male puberty should not be able to race against women as it gives them an unfair advantage - it is pragmatism.

Smileless2012

Posting that hatred is being peddled on this thread is a vague and generalised attack on anyone who disagrees with you Glorianny and is another example of the weakness of your argument.

So, how did we get here - to the point where we are now being accused of pedalling hatred?

Those of us who believe that sex is biologically real and matters in some contexts are denounced in every way possible by either accusations of 'hatred' or, if that doesn't stick, "fear".

Further - because even the intersectional feminist will admit that there are situations where women should be allowed the sanctity of women-only spaces - we are (or Doodledog was) accused of "moaning on here" because of our inability to solve the problem that transwomen have presented us with by insisting that they be allowed to occupy these spaces.

So this is where we're at. And, it would appear, that the only way to deal with the problem, is for women to accept that TWAW and relinquish some of our rights so that they can have theirs.

A man at some point in his life, has some 'innate' sense that he cannot identify with his biological sex, and chooses to identify as a woman because that feels right. So - why is that an issue? Well, it wasn't, until he decided that his sense of himself as a woman, his perception, his feelings, his reality, were more important than my recognition of observable reality and the immutability of sex... something I should not be allowed to speak about, or debate publicly - just accept. I must accept that a man with full male genitalia can even go so far as to insist that his 'girl dick' is a female sex organ.

To point this out is regarded as "inflammatory". Is it inflammatory to highlight the inflammatory placards of the TWA? Are we supposed to not notice? Not mention it?

So I'm wrong because I post which you ignore in favour of your own prejudices.

You call transwomen women, when women are AHF and transwomen are AHM, and you do that regardless of the harm some of these TW do to women and to other TW. Even worse, you’re evidently proud of doing that.

You call an intersex woman a woman?

How have you suddenly been made arbiter of what an intersex person is Glorianny?
Did you 😱 test them for make or female DNA?
Did you 😱😱 examine their genitalia?

Honestly it is pure prejudice on your part.