Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

My beliefs make absolutely no difference to the reality. If I chant the mantra there sex will remain the same I am afraid.

GrannySomerset

Glorianny proves my point admirably. Not what she intended, I suspect.

I'm not erasing women. I'm simply questioning a philosophy that says someone supports women, but doesn't recognise their right to identify as they wish.
Some people want to identify as men. Biological reality may insist they are women, but they don't want to be women they want to be known as men. Why do you insist they must be? And how is that not erasing people you think are women?

Glorianny proves my point admirably. Not what she intended, I suspect.

Mollygo

Glorianny
I thought you considered people should have their beliefs respected Mollygo.

I’m not sure how you translated that into respecting liars, but you do like to twist things, so . . .

Transwomen believe they are women. They are not lying.
If you believe a lie, that doesn’t make it the truth.

Believing you have changed sex is believing a lie

Are you saying that you think everyone who believes their own lies should have that belief respected?
Like the martial arts expert who punched a woman in the face for questioning his presence in a female safe space believed he felt threatened by her? Do you respect his belief?

You’ll be a favourite with some politicians if you do.

I believe this, because it’s the truth.
Transwomen are transwomen.
Transwomen are not women, because Women are Adult Human Females.
Transwomen are male.

You can choose whether you respect the truth or respect liars.

I see we are back on total focus on transwomen again.
As I have said before according to this theory therefore, transmen are women and should be allowed full access to women's facilities. so people looking like men will be found in all facilities. Will you feel safer then Mollygo?

Glorianny
I thought you considered people should have their beliefs respected Mollygo.

I’m not sure how you translated that into respecting liars, but you do like to twist things, so . . .

Transwomen believe they are women. They are not lying.
If you believe a lie, that doesn’t make it the truth.

Believing you have changed sex is believing a lie

Are you saying that you think everyone who believes their own lies should have that belief respected?
Like the martial arts expert who punched a woman in the face for questioning his presence in a female safe space believed he felt threatened by her? Do you respect his belief?

You’ll be a favourite with some politicians if you do.

I believe this, because it’s the truth.
Transwomen are transwomen.
Transwomen are not women, because Women are Adult Human Females.
Transwomen are male.

You can choose whether you respect the truth or respect liars.

It is a waste of time and effort to keep explaining biological reality to certain posters, and if it wasn’t so important their wriggling would be quite entertaining. But for a tiny group the erasure of women seems to be their aim and we simply can’t let that happen by default. So we have to keep on responding in the hope that some of the very closed mind may open a bit. But I won’t hold my breath.

OddOne

... "pure hatred", "bigotry" ?

Here's a couple of examples of both states of mind. And no-one on here is exhibiting such hatred or bigotry.

There are more, but I don't want to go over the top. As you have done.

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23268023.police-probe-decapitate-terfs-sign-trans-rally/

youtu.be/lsw3pdpxf64?t=37

Yeah, there will always be exceptions, but they don’t render the rule invalid. Cafes are often converted shops and the fact that they have one loo used by everyone is testament to the fact that alternatives are difficult if not impossible in many buildings, which is my point.

Mollygo

Accusations of bigotry are always used in discussions about TW.
The bigotry, if it exists, is two way.

The bigots who think TW lying about, their sex is wrong, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

The bigots who think it’s OK for TW to lie about, their sex, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

And Galaxy, that sounds right.
^Actually oddone you sound quite bigoted towards those who hold a protected belief.^

I thought you considered people should have their beliefs respected Mollygo.
Transwomen believe they are women. They are not lying.
Their belief is as valid as any other.

Doodledog

*Or maybe - in the case of public toilets or changing rooms anyway - we could have cubicles-only, with floor to ceiling doors and internal wash basins? And no communal area.*

I don't know if that would work. But it would prevent anyone from having to present any form of ID, and allow for individual privacy.
This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

Older buildings often have neither space nor plumbing to do this successfully, and a rule saying that only suitable buildings need to have such facilities would be a sop to the real concerns of many women. Most universities would be exempt, as would many office blocks, listed buildings, theatres and pubs and restaurants in older buildings.

This isn't quite true. One of the oldest buildings in our city had a makeover recently and has single cubicle toilets now. New university buildings have the same provision. Single cubicles, some indicating male, some female and some either, with a communal waiting and washing area. I know quite a few cafes with one toilet that is used by everyone.
Listing usually doesn't extend into areas where alterations have already taken place, as they have for toilet provision so it shouldn't prevent redevelopment.

Accusations of bigotry are always used in discussions about TW.
The bigotry, if it exists, is two way.

The bigots who think TW lying about, their sex is wrong, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

The bigots who think it’s OK for TW to lie about, their sex, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

And Galaxy, that sounds right.
Actually oddone you sound quite bigoted towards those who hold a protected belief.

I would respond to that if Oddone were able to back up her tirade of accusations with evidence - as it stands, in her bigoted eyes disagreeing with her point of view appears to amount to ‘hatred’, and discussing on a discussion site is equivalent to being ‘a despicable human being incapable of allowing other people to live their lives the way they wish to’.

None of us is ‘not allowing’ anyone to do anything - that is not in our gift. We are discussing possible ways to allow transwomen the right to live their lives without (a) infringing on the rights of women to privacy and dignity, and (b) without all of them being perceived as the potential threat that some of them undoubtedly are.

Whenever women defend women’s rights we are seen as ‘man haters’. Best to ignore the tropes and stand up for the rights of our daughters and granddaughters.

Oh dear, referring to someone by their actual sex, assigned to them at birth, makes one a despicable human being, bigoted … obviously OddOne prefers fantasy to reality.

Actually oddone you sound quite bigoted towards those who hold a protected belief.

A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open! and when it's open, it's able to disagree with well articulated opposing points of view, without resulting to insulting those that have them by accusing them of being bigots and displaying "pure hatred".

Germanshepherdsmum

*OddOne*, whether you like it or not this person is a man.

Incorrect.

However, whether I like it or not, you, and many others on here, seem to be despicable human beings incapable of allowing other people to live their lives the way they wish to, a way which has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else, but you all insist on making it your business. By denying a person's identity you not only deny them their right, you deny them respect.

As someone with a foot in several minorities that suffer discrimination on a daily basis, I find the bigotry, and indeed, pure hatred, being openly displayed in this "discussion" absolutely nauseating. I joined GN expecting to find other educated, open minded and non-judgemental people, having grown tired of the ignorant, prejudiced, 30 and 40 somethings on other SM sites. I have, unfortunately, discovered I was totally incorrect. In fact, most here are far worse than the younger generations elsewhere. With this fact having been unwaveringly proven herein, I can only bid a, not at all reluctant, farewell GN is not for me, I'm too accepting. For my own peace of mind, and indeed, sanity, I need to remove myself from this extremely toxic environment, which I shall do forthwith.

I'll leave one final thought that many of you could learn from:

A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open!

Almost certainly universities. Old buildings often have fewer gents’ that ladies’ anyway, and the plumbing is such that it would be difficult to install new toilet blocks.

I really think that if that were adopted as a solution it would mean that nothing changed other than that ladies’ loos would become ’gender neutral’ (incorporating disabled and baby changing) so women’s facilities would shrink even further compared to men’s, and we would still be sharing what used to be our spaces with everyone.

Doodledog

*Or maybe - in the case of public toilets or changing rooms anyway - we could have cubicles-only, with floor to ceiling doors and internal wash basins? And no communal area.*

I don't know if that would work. But it would prevent anyone from having to present any form of ID, and allow for individual privacy.
This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

Older buildings often have neither space nor plumbing to do this successfully, and a rule saying that only suitable buildings need to have such facilities would be a sop to the real concerns of many women. Most universities would be exempt, as would many office blocks, listed buildings, theatres and pubs and restaurants in older buildings.

This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

This of course is the problem which I was aware of when I made the observation.

I wonder how new-builds will develop in future.

But, of course, the exemptions are a problem. Especially pubs and entertainment venues. And possibly universities.

Or maybe - in the case of public toilets or changing rooms anyway - we could have cubicles-only, with floor to ceiling doors and internal wash basins? And no communal area.

I don't know if that would work. But it would prevent anyone from having to present any form of ID, and allow for individual privacy.
This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

Older buildings often have neither space nor plumbing to do this successfully, and a rule saying that only suitable buildings need to have such facilities would be a sop to the real concerns of many women. Most universities would be exempt, as would many office blocks, listed buildings, theatres and pubs and restaurants in older buildings.

Transwomen are not women.
They are not a different sort of women,
they are simply not women.

Carrying a certificate wouldn’t work, mainly because if TW are determined to lie, they’re unlikely to find too much difficulty getting a false certificate to support their lie.

If you can’t rely on a male being truthful, making him carry a certificate isn’t going to change that.

I’m sure Glorianny will be able to provide evidence of transmen lying to enable them to cheat in sport or enter places where their sex means they are not entitled to be, especially to threaten males so I’d know if they are likely to be as dishonest about their sex as are the TW who caused this problem.

Transwomen are exactly that. They are not and never will be women. All sorts of excuses, human rights, intersectional feminism, can be raised, but none of them can alter the fact that a male is a male, not a female.
Interestingly (for me) I found evidence of a competition offering a trans category-but the TW still preferred to compete against females rather than compete against other TW or males.

Smileless2012

Where have I said that trans men are the wrong sort of women Glorianny? I've said previously that trans men are women. I don't differentiate between trans men and women because they are both women. In the same way that trans women and men are both men.

You said
If I may answer the question you've asked Mollygo Glorianny I would say that anyone who is transgender should carry, and be prepared to show they have a certificate to prove that they are trans if asked to do so.
So transmen must carry a certificate- you think they are women, natal women do not need to carry anything. 2 sorts of women.

So true. I know someone with this. I can't imagine she cares too much who's running the charity as long as it leads to the best and quickest treatment. The waiting is agony.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Smileless2012

Where have I said that trans men are the wrong sort of women Glorianny? I've said previously that trans men are women. I don't differentiate between trans men and women because they are both women. In the same way that trans women and men are both men.

But you want trans people to carry gender certificates *Smileless2012^ so you create two sorts of women, one which must carry identification one which needent. The wrong sort of people always need to show some ID. The right sort of course are just accepted.

Fine, let's all carry identification that must show our birth sex, not a legal fiction. Some services demanded proof of covid vaccination before allowing people to use them, so single sex spaces could demand proof from everybody of natal sex before admittance. No ^wrong sort of people^

Or maybe - in the case of public toilets or changing rooms anyway - we could have cubicles-only, with floor to ceiling doors and internal wash basins? And no communal area.

I don't know if that would work. But it would prevent anyone from having to present any form of ID, and allow for individual privacy.

In an unattended public toilet (are there any left?) there is no one to check ID anyway.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Smileless2012

Where have I said that trans men are the wrong sort of women Glorianny? I've said previously that trans men are women. I don't differentiate between trans men and women because they are both women. In the same way that trans women and men are both men.

But you want trans people to carry gender certificates *Smileless2012^ so you create two sorts of women, one which must carry identification one which needent. The wrong sort of people always need to show some ID. The right sort of course are just accepted.

Fine, let's all carry identification that must show our birth sex, not a legal fiction. Some services demanded proof of covid vaccination before allowing people to use them, so single sex spaces could demand proof from everybody of natal sex before admittance. No ^wrong sort of people^

I believe ID has been rejected as an idea. But if we had to carry something although it would help with organised and staffed venues there would still be places like toilets which would be unpoliced where men saying they were transmen could just walk in.
The idea that banning transwomen somehow keeps women safer is completely unfounded.

Smileless2012

How many times do I have to say it Glorianny? Trans women are not women so no, I am not creating "two sorts of women", there is only one 'sort' of women; women.

Great suggestion Rosie.

Of course you are creating two sorts of women. Nothing to do with transwomen. You think transmen are women, but women who should carry a gender recognition certificate. Natal women don't need to carry anything. Two sorts of women.